# Orphan Black on BBC America **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 31, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458 "2013-03-31T19:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/61 "2013-05-08T17:37:02Z")
Ok, intersting thoughts. I think it is likely a private effort, and a realistically hapless and desperate one. An Illuminati-style super-conspiracy is possible, but I think we’ll find out that the organization’s resources, methods, and goal are limited and flawed. As well, other organizations are piggybacking on the one that did the cloning, for their own reasons, which will probably remain unclear for some time. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/62 "2013-05-08T19:42:18Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m _extremely_ impressed with Tatiana Maslany. Ghost is all grown up! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/63 "2013-05-08T23:01:44Z")
I’ll also note that if Donnie is a monitor, he’s a lot better at it than Paul is. Paul figures out that “Beth” isn’t who she says she is, and it’s straight to gunpoint interrogations, maneuvering to cover his own ass with his boss (re: suicide), beating Vick for information, and being all set to drawn down and kill Allison’s neighbor. Paul is in way over his head, and the skills he’s bringing to bear on his situation are entirely the wrong ones. Conversely, Donnie comes up with a clever explanation for his lockbox with the porno DVDs, which fails only because Allison already found them. He’s kept his cover for over a decade, and in the face of Allison’s glue-gun torture and (hypothetically) having figured out everything, keeps his cool and bluffs his way through it with a convincing (literal) sob story and a ladling of pacifying flattery of and submission to Allison. If Donnie is a monitor, he’s highly skilled and exactly the right person for the job. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/64 "2013-05-08T23:34:43Z")
While normally I would say you’re giving the writers too much credit, I’m sad to say, you may well be correct - which slightly sucks. I do love intricate story lines with multiple possibilities. But when they’re very well written, they can be maddening. Normally I wouldn’t think much about it until the next episode and it would be something churning away in the background like a subroutine. As a devotee of the shiny (Ooo, squirrel!) I need this sort of thing to stay fully focused - if that made any sense. But there CAN be too much of a good thing. However this board has fubared that option and I expect everyone in this thread to accept responsibility. :mad: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/65 "2013-05-12T18:53:38Z")
It was nice getting a bit of Sarah’s backstory from Mrs. S in last night’s episode. Also her saying she will keep Kira safe no matter what. I wonder if that’s why Sarah doesn’t have a monitor, because Mrs. S smuggled her away. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/66 "2013-05-12T22:41:16Z")
That whole tail thing was disgusting. :vomitsmiley ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/67 "2013-05-13T14:17:43Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > However if you’re going to make the argument for recent monitoring, what is the rationale. What would be special about this stage of “clone life” that would require it as opposed to all of the previous stages where they could have permitted them such free reign that one of them - Sarah - even got “misplaced?” I think we got our answer; it was when clones started being targeted for death by Helena’s organization. Things are starting to clarify. There are two organizations, one is headed by Dr. Aldous Leekie, and it includes the Dyad Institute, Delphine, Olivier, and Olivier’s lady friend whose name I didn’t catch. Seems like the Institute created the clones, with the help of Maggie Chen, who later defected to another organization. They kept an eye on them, but when they started getting killed, the organization stepped things up, installing people to get close to Beth and Cosima, and trying to recruit Cosima into the Institute directly. The other organization includes Thomas and Helena, and the late Maggie Chen. They appear to be a religious order, and seek to eradicate the clones and possibly also those responsible for them. Their actual knowledge of the clones and their creators appears pretty spotty, given that they had Maggie Chen as a source; or it’s just being kept from Helena, or Olivier joined after Maggie Chen left, or wasn’t part of the Institute itself. So, looks like unethical transhumanists and arch-conservative religious zealots fighting a shadow war for the future of the human race. Interesting stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/68 "2013-05-13T14:20:15Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > It was nice getting a bit of Sarah’s backstory from Mrs. S in last night’s episode. Also her saying she will keep Kira safe no matter what. I wonder if that’s why Sarah doesn’t have a monitor, because Mrs. S smuggled her away. I think that’s it, the monitoring stuff must have been much more casual until the clones started getting killed, then they were unable to locate all the clones. Or, the man who gave little Sarah to Mrs. S took her from the clone creators, and they never knew where she was. The only ones we can definitely say they knew the locations of were Beth and Cosima; it’s unclear if they know where Alison is. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/69 "2013-05-13T14:34:08Z")
Olivier running his operation out of a shabby night-club basement with a single assistant and no guards was kinda unimpressive. Sarah could’ve just cut Paul loose while Olivier was busy with his Evil Villain Speech and then Paul could’ve beaten him to death with his own tail. Other then that it was a good episode. I liked the development of The Assassin clone. The rest of the villains need some work (probably doesn’t help that I watched “Honey I Shrunk the Kids” like eight times when I was a kid, and so have trouble seeing the evil scientist guy as anything but the angry neighbour from that movie). ---
**Author:** ![wonderlust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonderlust/32/7237_2.png) [@wonderlust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderlust)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/70 "2013-05-13T16:21:52Z")
I’m trying to place this in time. Is it supposed to be present-day but alternate world with bio-hacks for the club-set, or near-future? I don’t believe what Thomas says, that Helena is the original. Her mental state is so fragile, that I think he’s just telling her that to manipulate her. I’m still thinking that Sarah is the original, but maybe that’s because she’s our POV character. I’m loving this show more with each episode! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/71 "2013-05-13T16:34:40Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Olivier running his operation out of a shabby night-club basement with a single assistant and no guards was kinda unimpressive. I like that this clone conspiracy is something of a bumbling mess, instead of an all-knowing Illuminati. Everyone in the story is mistake-prone and has imperfect knowledge, which I like, it grounds the story and keeps it a human one. > [@Simplicio](#): > > Sarah could’ve just cut Paul loose while Olivier was busy with his Evil Villain Speech and then Paul could’ve beaten him to death with his own tail. Yeah, if she had one of Alison’s handguns (which I think she still does) and steely nerves, she could have handled all of this herself. > [@wonderlust](#): > > I’m trying to place this in time. Is it supposed to be present-day but alternate world with bio-hacks for the club-set, or near-future? I’m assuming mildly alternate present day, but it’s not totally clear. Nothing the police are using is more advanced than what exists right now, for instance. > [@wonderlust](#): > > I don’t believe what Thomas says, that Helena is the original. Her mental state is so fragile, that I think he’s just telling her that to manipulate her. I’m still thinking that Sarah is the original, but maybe that’s because she’s our POV character. If there is an original (30% chance that there will be a reveal that there is no original, that they were engineered from scratch), it’s likely Sarah. We know that both Beth and Alison are infertile, Sarah isn’t, so there’s _something_ unique about her. I’d also bet that this is how Leekie knew that Sarah-as-Beth’s medical results weren’t Beth’s, something about her fertility that is measurable showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/72 "2013-05-13T16:45:48Z")
> [@wonderlust](#): > > I’m trying to place this in time. Is it supposed to be present-day but alternate world with bio-hacks for the club-set, or near-future I think its supposed to be the present. The “bio-hacks” seem like a pretty obscure thing even in the world of Orphan Black, so presumably its just something that’s out there but most people (the shows audience, for example) haven’t heard about. Neither Felix nor The Scientist, both of whom are presumably pretty plugged into trendy sub-cultures or scientific culture respectively, was any more then vaguley familiar with “neolution” before it came up in the show. That said, the setting feels vaguely retro. Maybe its just the fact that its a Canadian show (“the 90’s didn’t hit Canada till 1996”), but it feels like the directors were inspired by 90’s Luc Besson movies or somesuch. ---
**Author:** ![wonderlust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonderlust/32/7237_2.png) [@wonderlust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderlust)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/73 "2013-05-13T16:57:30Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’d also bet that this is how Leekie knew that Sarah-as-Beth’s medical results weren’t Beth’s, something about her fertility that is measurable showed up. Also, the interview about her sexual behavior. Sarah has a stronger sex drive. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/74 "2013-05-13T17:19:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I like that this clone conspiracy is something of a bumbling mess, instead of an all-knowing Illuminati. Everyone in the story is mistake-prone and has imperfect knowledge, which I like, it grounds the story and keeps it a human one. Agreed. It is really the only way such a plot can logically be made to work. Make the organizations too incompetent and you can get plot holes. Make them too _competent_ or powerful and you get worse and bigger ones. A brilliant, but somewhat resource-limited and poorly organized/ad hoc group is the best solution from a plot standpoint IMO. > [@wonderlust](#): > > Also, the interview about her sexual behavior. Sarah has a stronger sex drive. And Cosima is gay or at least bi, then we have Alison who apparently isn’t giving Donny much loving. The result of deliberate markers introduced to identify clones? A nurture over nature comment by the producers? Or surface differences papering over deeper similarities that will come to the fore later? Poorly thought out writing? Only the shadow knows :). ETA: I also rather like the circling back to the title in this episode. According to Mrs. S, Sarah was put in the “black” to hide her. She is literally THE Orphan Black. Also this makes more coherent the England to Canada move, which otherwise comes off as slightly odd. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/75 "2013-05-13T17:52:29Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > And Cosima is gay or at least bi, then we have Alison who apparently isn’t giving Donny much loving. The result of deliberate markers introduced to identify clones? A nurture over nature comment by the producers? Or surface differences papering over deeper similarities that will come to the fore later? Poorly thought out writing? Only the shadow knows :). My girlfriend joked that the show was created as a political statement that homosexuality is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/76 "2013-05-13T17:53:18Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I like that this clone conspiracy is something of a bumbling mess, instead of an all-knowing Illuminati. Everyone in the story is mistake-prone and has imperfect knowledge, which I like, it grounds the story and keeps it a human one. I half agree. All knowing conspiracies are kind of a boring cliche, and lead to bad writing, since they end up being all knowing and powerful except for the one obvious flaw that’s an obvious plot-device to keep them from steamrolling the underdog heroes. So I’m glad Orphan isn’t going that route. But one would think an organization that had the money to make bunches of clones, track them for 30 years and blackmail people like Paul into watching them would be quite so resource constrained. The dance-club in the show had less security then _actual_ dance clubs I’ve been in, and so far as I know the latter don’t have evil conspiracies kidnapping people in the basement. ---
**Author:** ![wonderlust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonderlust/32/7237_2.png) [@wonderlust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderlust)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/77 "2013-05-13T18:11:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > My girlfriend joked that the show was created as a political statement that homosexuality is a choice. I like the very overt sexuality of Felix compared to many TV shows that feature gays that “act gay” but aren’t as sexual as their hetero counterparts. Orphan Black is not squeamish and seems to like to stay at the edge of discomfort in other ways too. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/78 "2013-05-13T18:13:19Z")
> [@wonderlust](#): > > I like the very overt sexuality of Felix compared to many TV shows that feature gays that “act gay” but aren’t as sexual as their hetero counterparts. Orphan Black is not squeamish and seems to like to stay at the edge of discomfort in other ways too. Felix is gay? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/79 "2013-05-13T18:18:12Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I half agree. All knowing conspiracies are kind of a boring cliche, and lead to bad writing, since they end up being all knowing and powerful except for the one obvious flaw that’s an obvious plot-device to keep them from steamrolling the underdog heroes. So I’m glad Orphan isn’t going that route. > But one would think an organization that had the money to make bunches of clones, track them for 30 years and blackmail people like Paul into watching them would be quite so resource constrained. The dance-club in the show had less security then _actual_ dance clubs I’ve been in, and so far as I know the latter don’t have evil conspiracies kidnapping people in the basement. We don’t have enough information to really gauge the organization’s reach or resources, so let me just toss out a plausible explanation that fits with what we’ve seen or been told so far. I’d say that the vast majority of what Dr. Leekie’s Dyad Institute\* is up to is legal, if fringe, science. The cloning project was probably carried out by a small inner-circle of hardcore transhumanists, including Dr. Leekie and Maggie Chen. The tracking of the clones appears to be sporadic, at best. They lost Sarah, possibly Alison, and probably Helena and Katja as well. If they just recently intensified their tracking/monitoring efforts recently in response to clones beig killed, it makes sense that they are more than a little behind on it. We don’t know how Paul came into the organization’s orbit, exactly, or how they came to possess information to extort him with, or whether they can can deliver anything they’ve promised him. Since Paul escaped alive, hopefully they will touch on that. In sum, I suggest that the organization was able to discreetly use the resources of the Institute to create to the clones, the secrecy demanded means that vital, _ongoing_ jobs like handling a monitor fell to weirdo non-scientist dilletantes like Olivier and pal, and grad students like Delphine. You can’t recruit just anyone into a plan that involves admitting that you illegally cloned 9 women, after all. You _can_ recruit hardcore transhumanists who want tails, and your lover, though. So, sure, Olivier’s club was not a good venue to interrogate a man, but it was never planned to be. The organization is in over its head and under-informed, just like the clones are. \*Anyone with a scientific background care to speculate on what Dyad might mean in story terms? > [@wanderlust](#): > > I like the very overt sexuality of Felix compared to many TV shows that feature gays that “act gay” but aren’t as sexual as their hetero counterparts. Orphan Black is not squeamish and seems to like to stay at the edge of discomfort in other ways too. Right, it’s not that often that gay TV characters are actually allowed to have sex, instead of just being non-sexually-threatening confidants to the female lead. This is changing, though. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/80 "2013-05-13T21:17:46Z")
[Dyad means a pair of sister chromatids](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyad_symmetry). From looking it up, a dyad appears to be how the familiar X shape of most chromosomes is formed. Each side is (mostly) the mirror image of the other and joined by the centromere. [However can also mean palindomic dna sequences.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyad_symmetry) My guess is the significance for the show relates to the more easily accessible first meaning. Paul clearly believes that Olivier and his backers have the power to ‘make Afghanistan go away.’ Being the practical sort, I assume he has good reason for this. In terms of having a location for illegal activity where things such as transient violence won’t be given much thought, it’s hard to imagine a better location than a night club, especially one of the fringe variety in an industrial area with a “private” clientele. I seriously doubt that the monitoring started with the murders. The data collection would have been ongoing were this an experiment. How closely they were monitored and for what reasons is another matter though. Paul’s involvement, being ex-mil and given the timeframe would suggest that he probably was in fact hired as a result of those events or perhaps in anticipation of them. It’s also starting to look as if the shooting of Chen was anything but an accident. Beth just happened to get caught out. It seems like way too much of a coincidence that an accidental police shooting should just happen to eliminate one of her potential enemies. Given the age of Sarah’s child, I assume that she has to be at least late 20’s or early 30’s. This puts her conception around the early to mid 80’s. [Dolly the sheep wasn’t cloned until 1996](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_(sheep)), so there is something funky about the timeline. If we figure this out, it will help decide the origin of the conspiracy. In terms of there being “an original”, the only way this makes sense is if the clones were created from an embryo and not from adult cells - as was the case I believe with Dolly (i.e., the latter). This should be a much more simple procedure consistent with the time period, but you have to catch the embryo at a very early stage. I think the cells start to differentiate after just a few replication cycles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458.md?page=5)