# Orphan Black on BBC America **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 31, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458 "2013-03-31T19:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/81 "2013-05-13T21:25:56Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Given the age of Sarah’s child, I assume that she has to be at least late 20’s or early 30’s. Just for the sake of mindless trivia, actor Tatiana Maslany is 28 and Skyler Wexler is 7, so that works. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/82 "2013-05-14T00:27:26Z")
> [@wonderlust](#): > > I’m trying to place this in time. Is it supposed to be present-day but alternate world with bio-hacks for the club-set, or near-future 20 minutes in the future. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wonderlust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonderlust/32/7237_2.png) [@wonderlust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderlust)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/83 "2013-05-14T00:45:27Z")
> [@wonderlust](#): > > I’m trying to place this in time. Is it supposed to be present-day but alternate world with bio-hacks for the club-set, or near-future? > [@deltasigma](#): > > Given the age of Sarah’s child, I assume that she has to be at least late 20’s or early 30’s. This puts her conception around the early to mid 80’s. [Dolly the sheep wasn’t cloned until 1996](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_(sheep)), so there is something funky about the timeline. If we figure this out, it will help decide the origin of the conspiracy. I’ve been wondering about this too. We’re talking about a level of tech that created clones 25-30 years ago in the Orphan Black universe – unless they’re going to suggest that their growth was accelerated, which seems pretty unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/84 "2013-05-14T01:52:49Z")
> [@wonderlust](#): > > I’ve been wondering about this too. We’re talking about a level of tech that created clones 25-30 years ago in the Orphan Black universe – unless they’re going to suggest that their growth was accelerated, which seems pretty unlikely. Especially since Mrs. S seems to have been taking care of Sarah most of her life. Any accelerated growth would have to have been from age 0-5 yrs or so. I don’t remember if Mrs. S said exactly how old Sarah when when she hid her. ---
**Author:** ![wonderlust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonderlust/32/7237_2.png) [@wonderlust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderlust)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/85 "2013-05-14T02:07:56Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > Especially since Mrs. S seems to have been taking care of Sarah most of her life. Any accelerated growth would have to have been from age 0-5 yrs or so. I don’t remember if Mrs. S said exactly how old Sarah when when she hid her. If Sarah’s the original then the others could be any age, except maybe Allison, who’s known her husband since childhood (or so we’re told). ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/86 "2013-05-14T03:05:57Z")
According to this [site](http://orphanblack.wikia.com/wiki/Orphan_Black_Wiki), they seem to all have been born in March or April of 1984. If they were implanted into surrogates all around the same time, that variation accounts for some giving birth early, some a bit late, etc. To me Cosima, Katja and Helena seem younger than Sarah and Beth, who seem younger than Alison. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/87 "2013-05-14T15:48:18Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Paul clearly believes that Olivier and his backers have the power to ‘make Afghanistan go away.’ Being the practical sort, I assume he has good reason for this. We need to know more about Paul’s background before we know what this really means. If it’s just disposing of physical evidence that they’ve come to possess, that’s one thing; if it’s influencing the military at a high level, that’s something else. > [@deltasigma](#): > > In terms of having a location for illegal activity where things such as transient violence won’t be given much thought, it’s hard to imagine a better location than a night club, especially one of the fringe variety in an industrial area with a “private” clientele. Sure, you could do a lot worse, but I doubt Olivier ever thought he’d need an interrogation room. They had Paul for that kind of work, until Paul turned out to be the person they needed to interrogate. > [@deltasigma](#): > > I seriously doubt that the monitoring started with the murders. The data collection would have been ongoing were this an experiment. How closely they were monitored and for what reasons is another matter though. Paul’s involvement, being ex-mil and given the timeframe would suggest that he probably was in fact hired as a result of those events or perhaps in anticipation of them. Somehow or another they apparently lost track of several of the clones. That could mean they didn’t monitor them closely, or that they were deliberately stolen away, like Sarah may have been. > [@deltasigma](#): > > It’s also starting to look as if the shooting of Chen was anything but an accident. Beth just happened to get caught out. It seems like way too much of a coincidence that an accidental police shooting should just happen to eliminate one of her potential enemies. Oh yeah, Beth murdered Maggie Chen, then roped Art into helping her cover it up by planting a phone in her hand. We don’t know exactly what led her to do it, but we’ve been told that Maggie Chen was involved with the cloning and then joined Helena & Thomas’ group. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/88 "2013-05-14T15:57:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Oh yeah, Beth murdered Maggie Chen, then roped Art into helping her cover it up by planting a phone in her hand. We don’t know exactly what led her to do it, but we’ve been told that Maggie Chen was involved with the cloning and then joined Helena & Thomas’ group. I agree that Beth murdered Maggie Chen, though she probably felt like it was preventive self defense. I think Art actually believes it was an accidental shooting, which is why he was willing to cover it up. I don’t see him covering up murder, even for his partner. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/89 "2013-05-14T21:59:37Z")
FYI for anyone interested. I haven’t checked this online so I may be wrong, but according to closed captioning, which I always use since I can’t always parse spoken words, it’s Tomas which I vaguely recall being pronounced TOE-mas rather than Thomas. Might be a clue there if I’m right. Anyway, if anyone thinks the shooting of Chen was just coincidence at this point, I don’t think you give the writers enough credit. Whether it was a premeditated murder though is something else. I’m not sure why people always tend to see things in black and white. My guess is that it will probably turn out to be something in between. As for losing track of clones, clearly that’s happened. Not sure how that’s relevant to clones that hadn’t been lost track of. Until the nature and purpose of the conspiracy is known it will be hard to speculate. However as a scientist, I’m sure that Cosima would be the first to tell you that you don’t just abandon an experiment, if that’s what this truly was conceived of from the beginning. Even when you tag and release animals into the wild, you try to create a mechanism for gathering data later. If not for each individual animal, then at least statistical data. Of course maybe it wasn’t conceived of as an experiment but as an organ replacement bank for someone - just as an example. Then you would have only the loosest monitoring. Unless maybe later the “program” was discovered by someone like Leekie (sp??) who decided to then use it for his own purposes and had the resources to find many of the clones and do so. ---
**Author:** ![wonderlust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonderlust/32/7237_2.png) [@wonderlust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderlust)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/90 "2013-05-14T23:01:03Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > FYI for anyone interested. I haven’t checked this online so I may be wrong, but according to closed captioning, which I always use since I can’t always parse spoken words I can’t believe I never thought of this before! It would be great for all these Brit-speak shows that I’m constantly rewinding to understand. Thanks for mentioning it. Too bad my cable provider makes it so hard to get to. A CC button would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/91 "2013-05-20T13:01:20Z")
[Orphan Black renewed for second season.](http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2013/05/bbc-americas-orphan-black-renewed-for-season-2/) Good thing, too, way too much going on to deal with it in the few episodes remaining. This episode highlighted a few things: - Leekie’s group either lost the clones as babies, or did a very bad job of keeping tabs on them. - Paul is now in his element. He took an inappropriately forceful response to Sarah’s replacing Beth, but now he’s using the right tools, and using them very well. Also, some more nice paranoia, with Sarah and Felix doubting Cosima’s loyalty, and Alison wigging out and burning down her life. The ice skating team she coaches is called the “Ice Queens”. Heh! ---
**Author:** ![wonderlust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonderlust/32/7237_2.png) [@wonderlust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderlust)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/92 "2013-05-20T18:13:22Z")
This was a fun, fun episode! Felix was cracking me up: “Mimosas?” and hinting he was Sarah’s sister. What ever happened to the plot point where Paul put something into the booze bottle? It seemed like a thread that went nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/93 "2013-05-20T18:45:11Z")
Delphine clearly realizes how dangerous Leekie is since she left out the information about Kira when reporting to him. And Olivier/Kevin’s death makes it clear that he’s much more than just a scientist in the overall scheme here. I really hate it when little kids get injured or killed in shows. Not that I have any particular love of kids in general, but I believe that showing violence toward them, even accidental violence really should be verboten, especially when it’s so graphic. But that’s just my personal opinion. Anyway, I think Helena has effectively sealed her fate with her longing to “belong.” Either she will turn against Tomas and provide and inroad to the anti-conspiracy or she’s dead meat at the hands of either Leekie’s goons (unlikely) or Sarah’s/Siobhan’s (likely). There is something wrong with all of the clones except Sarah. Cosima was incredibly sloppy leaving all of that data just lying about for Delphine to find especially since she already suspected Delphine. The lapses of judgment of everyone else are already pretty well documented. Sarah is an impulsive wild child but at least she isn’t a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/94 "2013-05-21T16:22:24Z")
> [@wonderlust](#): > > This was a fun, fun episode! Felix was cracking me up: “Mimosas?” and hinting he was Sarah’s sister. > > What ever happened to the plot point where Paul put something into the booze bottle? It seemed like a thread that went nowhere. Chekov’s Whiskey? It might well resurface, but it achieved a plot purpose already. Paul asked his handler, Olivier, about what would happen if “Beth” committed suicide. Satisfied with the answer, he set up a fake-suicide delivery system (alcohol and pills), though he determined that it wasn’t needed yet. So, even if it never comes up again, it served as characterization for Paul: thorough, scheming, and ruthless. He’s not as good under pressure, based on two episodes ago, but given time, he’s a pretty darn good planner. > [@deltasigma](#): > > Delphine clearly realizes how dangerous Leekie is since she left out the information about Kira when reporting to him. And Olivier/Kevin’s death makes it clear that he’s much more than just a scientist in the overall scheme here. Poor Kevin. What a come-down, from mysterious handler putting pressure on pain, to dying in a hospital under his birth name, tail-less, helpless, betrayed. Pretty harsh decision by Leekie, considering that Kevin was just a transhumanist pervent on the run from the law. Why should he be good at directly covert operations? > [@deltasigma](#): > > Anyway, I think Helena has effectively sealed her fate with her longing to “belong.” Either she will turn against Tomas and provide and inroad to the anti-conspiracy or she’s dead meat at the hands of either Leekie’s goons (unlikely) or Sarah’s/Siobhan’s (likely). Poor Helena. She’s in a no-win scenario, now. I suspect she’ll unload some information to Sarah and then get killed by her own people. > [@deltasigma](#): > > There is something wrong with all of the clones except Sarah. Cosima was incredibly sloppy leaving all of that data just lying about for Delphine to find especially since she already suspected Delphine. The lapses of judgment of everyone else are already pretty well documented. Sarah is an impulsive wild child but at least she isn’t a moron. Could be a deliberate choice by Cosima, have to wait and see. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/95 "2013-05-23T17:01:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Could be a deliberate choice by Cosima, have to wait and see. I thought it _was_ a deliberate choice by Cosima, and expected her to walk back in at any minute, catch Delphine in the act and convince/blackmail/strongarm her into working on the side of the Orphans. I was seriously disappointed when that didn’t happen. I am really glad they have finally let Mrs. S in on what’s going on. I think she could be a really good resource for them. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/96 "2013-05-24T22:05:46Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > I am really glad they have finally let Mrs. S in on what’s going on. I think she could be a really good resource for them. Yeah, I get the feeling she’s got a bit of a past to her making her someone who they need on their side. (not that I think she’s involved in the cloning conspiracies or anything, not THAT sort of past) ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/97 "2013-05-26T04:31:33Z")
Wow. I don’t have nearly enough imagination to even try to anticipate this show. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/98 "2013-05-26T18:45:13Z")
Yeah, pretty great episode last night! I was sort of on the fence with this show around episodes 4-5, but these last few have been really good. Next week is the season finale. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/99 "2013-05-26T19:47:42Z")
Well, [spoiler]they seem to be leading us down the ‘all-knowing’ cabal path it seems. We have Leekie’s comments about loosing track of Sarah for example. Although if we’re to believe the surrogate, it’s interesting that he doesn’t take that opportunity to mention Helena as being Sarah’s twin. If he wants to motivate her and he has that information, I would think good negotiating strategy would dictate using it. So that might also give some negative confirmation of his claim to ignorance. The ‘Iz only following zee orders’ routine that’s become so familiar. If so, then it would indirectly support a belief in his limited supervisory role and therefore lend some credence to any claims about have a genuine concern for the well being of the clones. There’s probably no compassion involved, but the concern might be real. Given the way Olivier/Kevin was dealt with, we should probably assume that this and other “protocols” are strictly enforced at all lower levels of the org chart as well. This would then tie in well with the fear we’ve seen in people like Delphine. I’m not sure how it reflects on the nature of the cabal though. It seems like we have to assume that this was something purely private ala the Illuminati with perhaps some indirect govt support as is often asserted in connection with secret societies. Oddly enough, that does make a little more sense in the context of a secret society of scientists. Even during the cold war for example, Russian physicists were allowed to visit the Tokamak at Princeton. They were pretty tight lipped from what I understand, but the idea of such an interaction of nuclear physicists at the time is unexpected. So if you could conceive of getting an int’l conspiracy going at a time of int’l tension, probably the best group you could pick would be like minded scientists. I do have a question about Cosima’s sequence results though. I’m pretty sure by the mid to late 80’s it was possible to use retroviral vectors to insert DNA sequences into the nucleus, but I’m doubtful about being able to do it with any precision. If anyone could comment on that, kudos and thanks.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458/100 "2013-05-28T23:55:17Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > I do have a question about Cosima’s sequence results though. I’m pretty sure by the mid to late 80’s it was possible to use retroviral vectors to insert DNA sequences into the nucleus, but I’m doubtful about being able to do it with any precision. If anyone could comment on that, kudos and thanks. It’s a science fiction universe, whether they could do it in real life or not is moot, they could do it within the confines of this particular universe. I mean, we can’t make people grow tails (as far as I know), but they can. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orphan-black-on-bbc-america/654458.md?page=6)