There training might even be better becausde they would be completely immersed in the environment from day one. There would be no idea of gradations of advancement, you’d learn what you could at the speed you were capable of learning it. You’d be taught by the people who were on the ship who might just be the cream of the crop. You’d also likely have stores of information packed into the ship’s computers so you could reference anything on the fly when you needed it.
Nonsense, a ship like that might have some of the best medical facilities available, and you can train the average person in the basics of anatomy, something we roundly fail to do in our society today.
How big is the ship?
A ship of five, while possibly able to reproduce in a way that allows steady replacement of those who die off, will never last because the crew will get so damned sick of one another. A ship of twenty-five might make it, though there’s still going to be a lot of nasty situations where a doctor must treat someone he hates or someone must reproduce with someone they despise because the computer’s breeding program demands it, even if you can avoid your enemies on a day to day basis (and that’s a big “if”.) Two hundred might make it, though it’s still a very small community.
If you had a population as large as ten thousand, though, I think you could make it fairly easily, speaking strictly of sociological dynamics. That’s plenty of people to avoid your enemies, not worry overmuch about inbreeding, and generally maintain a healthy society.
By the way, it’s worth considering population size in a genetic angle. Many science fiction stories figure on using frozen embryos to bring in fresh genetic material periodically, but there’s a limit on how long you can store them. The carbon-13 in their basic structure will slowly decay until the embryo, forced to deal with the buildup of alterations in DNA from the radioactive decay, is no longer viable, or at least no longer a benefit to your breeding program. I’ve seen calculations on how long this really is and can’t find 'em; I’ll keep digging.
How would that be any different from a society where you might not afford food if things go wrong? Besides, there’s a false dichotomy between that and communism. Here in the US, if you can’t afford food, you can get food stamps from the government, but nobody claims that the US is communist. Maybe on a ship, if you can’t afford air, you can qualify for oxygen stamps.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
It is highly unlikely that anyone on a ship would simply refuse to work and consume resources. That’s for people who fall outside of society. In that case there would be something dearly wrong with them, and execution might be a viable option. It shouldn’t be based on the market though. Optimization of people’s workflow can be done and is done today. You can see who is doing what and accomplishing what, without market mechanisms.
The ship would have to be 10,000 people or more. I mean you’re building a colony out of this, you need to. It also should be capable of sustaining up to half again it’s initial population if not double.
So you’re saying that the way to motivate people to keep working is that you’ll kill them if they don’t?
Might tend to keep the others diligent.
People should know that they are in a closed homeostatic mechanism, and that deriliction of biomechanical function renders you the sociological equivalent of a tumor. Yes, people who do not work on a generation ship should be thrown into the recycling bin.
I also find it incredibly unlikely that people wouldn’t work. In a society where everyone is brought up together and made to feel included like they have a purpose and are a part of the society tend not to end up in misanthropy. However, occasionally there is that one who is a genetic aberration and it’s in his nature to consume without producing anything at all. In which case a eugenic response is appropriate.
I think it would depend on the method proposed for multi-generational interstellar travel. Most of the replies seem to envision a huge closed habitat supporting thousands, which I think would be impractical for many reasons. I am also assuming that the trip will last in excess of 100 years. I think the best approach would be to look at successful multi-generational businesses and traditionally nomadic minority cultures. You’d want basically a self sustaining extended family group to act as caretakers, the majority of the human colonists would exist as DNA in the form of frozen sperm and egg cells (or even just the raw information). You would have to establish certain traditions and taboos that would reinforce the social structure and address the realities of limited resources. Strict population control, a strong tradition of fostered children (for the gene pool would have to be supplemented from the on board stores of DNA, perhaps one natural child per couple and one from donated stock), a strong tradition of inherited vocation and some form of self governance and authority. The task of the living during the voyage would be to simply keep the place together and deliver the payload of a genetically viable human population. I am assuming that the destination itself is a planet hospitable to life, otherwise… why bother going?
But then you’re not really talking about a generation ship in the sense the OP means it - more of a seeder ship.
My solution to some of the possible social problems would be to send not one large ship, but many medium-sized ships (say, 20 1000-person ships) as a fleet, with intership specialization and differentiation. Enough different “ship cultures” would mean that a misfit on one ship might just find a place on another, instead of longing for distant Earth.
Another possible way of dealing with social problems is the “Firefly 'verse solution”, I wouldn’t *tell *successive generations about current Earth at all. All original crew would have to take a vow (on pain of death, I suppose) to pretend that the ship/fleet is a refugee vessel, the last Ark from “Earth-that-was”. That way, people will be grateful to be on the ship and not…blown up or whatever. Of course, there’d either have to be a secret intergenerational cabal “in the know”, or else an Easter Egg in the computer or somesuch, to be triggered on arrival.
Hey, it worked for Stalin!
My feeling is the biggest kick in the balls would be when it takes the first colony ship a hundred or two hundred years to get where its going - and in the intervening century or two the speed of interstellar travel has increased enough that by the time they get there, a group of colonists who left long after they did gets there first.
Should they be told that their multi-generational endeavour has become a moot point in the years delayed communications? Or just let them show up to find out that all of their efforts maintaining a society through generations in a tin can in space hasn’t really meant anything?
In Saturn and Titan, novels in Ben Bova’s Grand Tour series, Bova portrays a space habitat, called Goddard, that is sent out to the Saturn subsystem, permanently. It is a large cylinder, spun for pseudogravity, with 10,000 residents but room for 100,000. The purported purpose of Goddard is to support scientific research about Saturn and its moons – the actual scientists being a tiny fraction of the general population, and, unlike them, not intending permanent residency; while the permanent residents are mostly exiled political dissidents and troublemakers (at least in the eyes of the rigid, puritanical New Morality movement that rules Earth). But the planners of the expedition actually have a social experiment in mind. On the journey out to Saturn the Goddard habitat is a company town belonging to the foundation that built it, but political independence is promised, and delivered, as soon as the habitat reaches Saturn’s orbit. Independence sticks, obviously, because Goddard is physically self-sufficient, growing its own food, needing no supplies of any kind from Earth, and there is no practical way for foundation or government to enforce their will on the Goddardites at such a distance. The resulting society is actually very plausible, at least IMO.
The point is, what practical difference does it make, for purposes of social life on board, if such a habitat is sent to Saturn or sent outside the Solar System entirely?
Who was it that said “If you can’t go fast, don’t go”…for the same reason.
My thoughts on this are that most people greatly underestimate the desire of people to advance, compete for mates and to favor their own offspring as well as inherent laziness.
This, IMO, would cause HUGE probably catastrophic consequences to a generation ship. If I was on a ship and was told that I was going to be some peon all my life I might get a little perturbed about that and not accept it. I want to be head honcho ME!..and so may even kill to get it. A group of us may even get together and seize control…I mean why SHOULD I be a peon?
In addition, what happens if I hate my boss? On Earth, I can get a different job (well usually). On this ship I am stuck with him/her. Why should I put up with it? My boss is an asshole so I have to deal with it? Hurumph…well maybe if I beat the shit out of him/her things would change?
What if I can’t get a cute girl to like me? There are no other women…what do I do? Do without? Screw that! I’m taking what I deserve…I mean why should HE have that cute girl and me not?
It would be a pressure-cooker…with no release ever. It would explode after some time.
Are you really equating the lack of choice between:
- Being born on a spaceship that you can’t leave and go back to Earth
with: - Being born on Earth, where it is theoretically possible to build a spaceship to live in. Keep in mind the context of this OP where such a spaceship is possible, although it may be very, very difficult and expensive.
And you ignored my comparison between being born in the spaceship and being born in a Earth-based compound that you are not allowed to leave. How are these different? Or do you consider both acceptable?
Honestly, without a really good reason to leave Earth, I can’t imagine signing up for a 100-200 year trip. Imagine you are in your 70’s watching TV with your teenage grandchildren. They see how great it looks on Earth and they consider the fact that they were born on the spaceship and will die on the spaceship. What do you say when they ask you why you signed up for this trip? You would need a really compelling reason.
Peon? Who do you think we would get to crew such a ship? Orc’s or stone age tribe or something?? If I put you on a cruise ship for a year are you going to foment a rebellion?
Sure, what you say COULD happen…but I don’t think it’s inevitable, especially if the society is designed well for the given environment.
Designing the society would be key. As would designing the various jobs on board. Crew mix would also be important. I think that social stigma would curb many of the things you are putting forward as a problem. Granted, you could get some psychotic personality who decides to smash up everything, but I think by and large people would react as they do in any structured society here on earth. There would be social stigmas attached to certain behaviors (like beating the shit out of your boss), and perhaps elaborate rituals involving personal space (think Japan). While it’s possible that such a society would become dysfunctional in time it’s not a given that it MUST go that way.
You could feel that way now…and you could do those things now. In fact, some people DO those things now, here on Earth. However, most of us don’t. Why do you think that would change once you are in space? Especially if you were raised in a society that frowned on such behavior?
It might…or then again, it might not. Myself, I think it would most likely effect the original crew more than the succeeding generations. It would be hard for YOU to go on such a voyage, seemingly…which is probably why psychological profiles and testing would weed you out as a potential candidate for such a trip. However, the travelers society would evolve and change to fit their environment. What might be difficult is for the generation aboard when they actually reach this other planet. All kinds of weird psychological aberrations might manifest themselves at that point because of the sudden change to the culture and society they have built up. They may have to go through screening and psychological profiling to basically weed out those unsuited to colonize the planet…sort of the opposite of the same testing used to find the original crew.
-XT
Because of these issues, I’m thinking it might not work so well with people who have grown up in a modern democratic society.
People on Earth in other societies have put up with being foreordained to be a peon with no way to advance, or with abusive bosses and no way of leaving or leaving is very difficult (medieval serfs would be an example). People have put up with (and continue to put up with) arranged marriages (that and maybe polyandry/polygyny and/or some sort of celibate priesthood if the sex ratios aren’t quite right could deal with the issue of competing for mates). Other societies have dealt with those problems without collapsing.
Sure…the original crew. Generations in though they will just be normal people. I think unrest is very probable. People like to be top dog.
I agree…it doesn’t have to be that way and designing a society would be key. However, I do think a catastrophic failure is likely. Social stigmas are one thing…but people do reach their breaking point. Someone might be willing to put up with much shit on Earth because they can look for a new job, quit or whatever. On the ship though, they are stuck. Imagine yourself in that situation with an asshole boss…I think I am pretty mild mannered but could see myself snapping at some point…or even just saying ‘to hell with it’ and quitting anyway.
On Earth, I can escape the situation. On the ship I am stuck. Some people will not tolerate it and strike back. Others will just quit either refusing to work or even suicide.
It’s not a psychological aberation to want to be top dog. In addition, the screening and profiling will only apply to the inital crew. Several generations in it will just be ‘regular folks’.
Look…if we are on the ship and you are my ‘superior’ and I don’t think you are…what do you do? Why should YOU be able to give ME orders?! Keep me there by force? What if I don’t get a ‘quality mate’? You got yours because you are proclaimed to be my superior (not because I am an ass) so that is unfair and I feel justified in lashing back.
Even as simple as…are their weapons on board? If so…it is easy to use force. If not…well…if I am a big guy and you are some smart ass little wimp then I can beat you senseless and claim your position…
This is not a far-fetched proposition. It is not ‘abnormal’…it is human. The ship is beyond Earth’s laws and generations removed from it’s culture and values…why SHOULD I be considered a lower level then some scrawny wimp!?
This might happen…and is even likely, IMO.
Pressure cooker, I tells ya 