# Orrin Hatch: Either Stupid or Lying **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743 "2011-05-13T01:51:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/1 "2011-05-13T01:51:40Z")
I was reading an [article](http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20110512/US.Senate.Oil.CEOs/) about today’s hearings to ‘grill’ oil executives and discuss revoking tax breaks for oil companies when I came across this bit: > [@](#): > > “All this hearing is about is providing a justification for tax increases,” said Hatch, framed by the dog-and-pony portrait behind him. > > “For the president and some of my colleagues,” the Republican said, “the answer is always raise taxes. Government spends too much? Raise some taxes. Health care too expensive? Raise some taxes. Gas prices too expensive? I’ve got it … let’s raise some taxes.” Looks like Mr. Hatch has been cooped up indoors too long and needs to stick his head out a window: [U.S. Taxes At Lowest Level Since 1958](http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/06/taxes-low-58/) > [@](#): > > Americans are paying the smallest share of their income for taxes since 1958 > [@](#): > > The total tax burden — for all federal, state and local taxes — dropped to 23.6% of income in the first quarter, according to Bureau of Economic Analysis data. Why are taxes so low? The short answer is that this (formerly) Democratic Party-controlled government has _cut taxes_, and not just a little- they’re at their lowest rate in over 5 decades! So. Is Orrin Hatch stupid, or is he merely lying? Such a debate can only occur in the pit, and here it is. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/2 "2011-05-13T01:55:58Z")
The Republicans have set the plate and Americans are eating it. They believe our taxes are high and should be cut. They believe the problem is we spend too much. That is what they have been fed, and they are eating it with gusto. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/3 "2011-05-13T01:56:59Z")
This is from the same GOP playbook that brought you the concept of not renewing the Bush tax breaks = raising taxes. I see no difference, except for the planet sized balls it takes to invoke this kind of spin with oil companies as the beneficiaries. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/4 "2011-05-13T05:11:05Z")
This is Orrin Hatch, so stupid _ **and** _ lying is the usual suspect of this answer. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/5 "2011-05-13T05:20:01Z")
Lying. Yeah. Lying. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/6 "2011-05-13T10:41:26Z")
I’m gonna go with **The Second Stone’s** answer…it’s not an either/or question. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/7 "2011-05-13T12:07:19Z")
Self-righteous. disingenuous hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/8 "2011-05-13T12:25:48Z")
I actually threw something at the TV last night when he was on. ---
**Author:** ![MTRG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71c47a/32.png) [@MTRG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTRG)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/9 "2011-05-13T12:31:15Z")
I thought that we were talking about Orren Boyle. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/10 "2011-05-13T13:07:09Z")
Actually, the hypocrite is Obama. Like so many issues (ahem… Gitmo…) he campaigns one way and governs another. If he believes (and the lefties believe, as per the [thinkprogress.org](http://thinkprogress.org) cite) that taxes are too low, then he needs to take a stand and raise them. Frankly, his buddies were in charge for two full years and did nothing about it (well, they raised S CHIP, which made my cigars more expensive). So your fight isn’t with Orrin, he’s only saying what his constuency wants him to say. It’s with Mr Competent. PS the bullshit with the oil companies is actually another issue, especially the so-called “subsidies”. Not one person in 50 understands what’s really going on there, I bet. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/11 "2011-05-13T13:08:24Z")
What irritates me, is this is a hearing on an important matter – budget, taxes, spending, the whole schpiel is pretty forefront on the ‘let’s get shit done’ list that congress has in front of them right now. And this dick refers to it as a ‘dog and pony show,’ complete with oh so humorous pictures of dogs and ponies. This isn’t a dog and pony show. If Orrin Hatch needs a refresher on Congressional dog and pony shows, he needs look no further than Peter ‘It Doesn’t Count When The IRA Does It’ King’s House UnChristian Activities Committee or whatever bullshit title he slapped on it when he made Keith Ellison cry. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/12 "2011-05-13T14:18:48Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > So your fight isn’t with Orrin, he’s only saying what his constuency wants him to say. Of course, what constituents “want to hear” all too often qualifies _exactly_ as stupid or lying. Your terribly weak excuse on behalf of little ol’ Orrin is some powerful stupid itself. More succinctly: your debilitating anti-Obama complex is naught but a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/13 "2011-05-13T14:20:05Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Actually, the hypocrite is Obama. Like so many issues (ahem… Gitmo…) he campaigns one way and governs another. Obama campaigned on lowering taxes for people making under $225,000, and he did. It’s true that Obama’s administration hasn’t quite lived up to its campaign promises, but unfortunately you picked about the one spot where they did, and now you look kind of stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/14 "2011-05-13T14:25:51Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Actually, the hypocrite is Obama. Like so many issues (ahem… Gitmo…) he campaigns one way and governs another. What a fucking stupid response. OP: Hatch is an idiot when he complains that taxes are so high, because they are clearly much lower than in the past. Mr. Smashy: Ya, well the Democrats should lower them if they think taxes are too high. Me: What a fucking idiot who missed the point of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/15 "2011-05-13T14:44:29Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > [U.S. Taxes At Lowest Level Since 1958](http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/06/taxes-low-58/) > > > [@](#): > > > > Americans are paying the smallest share of their income for taxes since 1958 > > Why are taxes so low? The short answer is that this (formerly) Democratic Party-controlled government has _cut taxes_, and not just a little- they’re at their lowest rate in over 5 decades! Your own cite shows that your short answer is seriously deficient - > [@](#): > > Americans are paying the smallest share of their income for taxes since 1958, a reflection of tax cuts **and a weak economy** Not to mention that your idea of raising income taxes on all Americans has little to do with taxation of oil companies. And, of course, when Hatch says > [@](#): > > “All this hearing is about is providing a justification for tax increases,” said Hatch, framed by the dog-and-pony portrait behind him. > > “For the president and some of my colleagues,” the Republican said, “the answer is always raise taxes. Government spends too much? Raise some taxes. Health care too expensive? Raise some taxes. Gas prices too expensive? I’ve got it … let’s raise some taxes.” and you respond with a justification for tax increases, you are demonstrating that Sen. Hatch is entirely correct. So, you must be stupid, or lying, or both. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/16 "2011-05-13T14:53:53Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > This is from the same GOP playbook that brought you the concept of not renewing the Bush tax breaks = raising taxes. Well not renewing the Bush tax breaks would have been raising taxes. It would have been a good idea, but it certainly would have raised taxes, if only back to their prior levels. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/17 "2011-05-13T14:56:34Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I was reading an [article](http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20110512/US.Senate.Oil.CEOs/) about today’s hearings to ‘grill’ oil executives and discuss revoking tax breaks for oil companies when I came across this bit: > > Looks like Mr. Hatch has been cooped up indoors too long and needs to stick his head out a window: [U.S. Taxes At Lowest Level Since 1958](http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/06/taxes-low-58/) > Why are taxes so low? The short answer is that this (formerly) Democratic Party-controlled government has _cut taxes_, and not just a little- they’re at their lowest rate in over 5 decades! > > So. Is Orrin Hatch stupid, or is he merely lying? Such a debate can only occur in the pit, and here it is. There’s no clash between what Orrin Hatch said and what you are saying. Orrin Hatch said “Democrats always want to raise taxes.” You said “taxes now are low.” There would be clash only if Orrin said “taxes now are high” or you said “Democrats do not always want to raise taxes.” ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/18 "2011-05-13T15:01:25Z")
That’s funny, I haven’t noticed that _my_ taxes have gone down. In fact, the percentage seems to have increased. Maybe I should get [thinkprogress.org](http://thinkprogress.org) to help me prepare my income tax. I seem to have somehow misplaced all of my Democratic tax cuts. My Republican ones seem to be amiss too. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/19 "2011-05-13T15:06:17Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well not renewing the Bush tax breaks would have been raising taxes. It would have been a good idea, but it certainly would have raised taxes, if only back to their prior levels. Not renewing the Bush tax breaks would have resulted in increased taxes. It would not have been “raising taxes”, which implies an affirmative action rather than an omission. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/20 "2011-05-13T15:24:10Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > That’s funny, I haven’t noticed that _my_ taxes have gone down. > > In fact, the percentage seems to have increased. > Maybe I should get [thinkprogress.org](http://thinkprogress.org) to help me prepare my income tax. > > I seem to have somehow misplaced all of my Democratic tax cuts. My Republican ones seem to be amiss too. Well I’m convinced. If they haven’t gone down for you they must not have gone down for anybody. But seriously, I’d try and find out who is stealing your [cut in SS taxes](http://www.walletpop.com/2011/01/07/bigger-paychecks-in-2011-most-taxpayers-benefit-from-payroll-ta/). You could use that money to buy an informed opinion. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743.md?page=2)