# Orrin Hatch: Either Stupid or Lying **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743 "2011-05-13T01:51:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/21 "2011-05-13T17:18:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Obama campaigned on lowering taxes for people making under $225,000, and he did. It’s true that Obama’s administration hasn’t quite lived up to its campaign promises, but unfortunately you picked about the one spot where they did, and now you look kind of stupid. He campaigned on letting the Bush tax cuts expire. He might have4 talked about cutting taxes for those who make less than 250K but it was a whisper compared to the shouts for letting the bush tax cuts expire. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/22 "2011-05-13T17:20:25Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Not one person in 50 understands what’s really going on there, I bet. Why don’t you tell us what this is about. What’s really going on? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/23 "2011-05-13T17:23:18Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well not renewing the Bush tax breaks would have been raising taxes. It would have been a good idea, but it certainly would have raised taxes, if only back to their prior levels. extending them would have been cutting taxes. For example if my cable company gives me half price cable for 3 months when I sign up and then starts charging me what they charge everyone else. I guess you could say that they raised my cable prices by 100% percent but to any reasonable observer, my discount period has just lapsed. If they extended my discount for another 9 months then I would call that more discount rather than more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/24 "2011-05-13T17:24:57Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > That’s funny, I haven’t noticed that _my_ taxes have gone down. > > In fact, the percentage seems to have increased. > Maybe I should get [thinkprogress.org](http://thinkprogress.org) to help me prepare my income tax. > > I seem to have somehow misplaced all of my Democratic tax cuts. My Republican ones seem to be amiss too. Then you’re probably making more money than you used to OR you’re not doing it right. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/25 "2011-05-13T17:29:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > There’s no clash between what Orrin Hatch said and what you are saying. Orrin Hatch said “Democrats always want to raise taxes.” You said “taxes now are low.” > > There would be clash only if Orrin said “taxes now are high” or you said “Democrats do not always want to raise taxes.” Reading comprehension fail. Orrin Hatch: “Democrats always want to raise taxes”. OP: “Demorats have actually lowered taxes, including during the last Congress when they had complete control”. So, Orrin is clearly lying, Democrats to not **always** want to raise taxes. In fact, they have very recently lowered them. More than once (the stimulus also had tax cuts in it). ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/26 "2011-05-13T17:31:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > He campaigned on letting the Bush tax cuts expire. He might have4 talked about cutting taxes for those who make less than 250K but it was a whisper compared to the shouts for letting the bush tax cuts expire. To be fair, he only campaigned on letting the expire for the top bracket (or two?). Not the entirety of them. He wasn’t able to do that, obviously, because the Dems were scared shitless (as usual) about GOP campaign threats in the mid-terms. Naturally the Dems got routed anyways, and now Medicare is on the chopping block. Well played, Dems. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/27 "2011-05-13T17:35:33Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > To be fair, he only campaigned on letting the expire for the top bracket (or two?). Not the entirety of them. > > He wasn’t able to do that, obviously, because the Dems were scared shitless (as usual) about GOP campaign threats in the mid-terms. Naturally the Dems got routed anyways, and now Medicare is on the chopping block. Well played, Dems. I believe this is from the “Thank you sir, may I have another” school of negotiating. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/28 "2011-05-13T18:10:56Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Reading comprehension fail. > > Orrin Hatch: “Democrats always want to raise taxes”. > > OP: “Demorats have actually lowered taxes, including during the last Congress when they had complete control”. > > So, Orrin is clearly lying, Democrats to not **always** want to raise taxes. No, Obama and certain unnamed Congresscritters always _want_ to raise taxes - it is just that they are sometimes too frightened or incompetent to be able to do so. > [@](#): > > Naturally the Dems got routed anyways, and now Medicare is on the chopping block. It would be anyway - Obamacare requires substantial cuts to Medicare in order to be deficit neutral. Unless you are suggesting that we need to raise taxes, in which case Hatch’s statement is, again, hyperbole at worst and clinically accurate in many cases at best. I am, however, considering the adoption of “Demorats” as my default term. Thanks. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/29 "2011-05-13T18:13:02Z")
GOP believes all taxes are theft - they would complain about $10 a year. (I don’t receive a paycheck, but weren’t withholding taxes lowered recently? The only thing wrong with Obama is that he’s letting the GOP push him around.) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/30 "2011-05-13T18:15:01Z")
Now SHODAN knows what they think. Yow, how can you win. The DEms cut taxes, but secretly they wanted to raise them ,therefore it does not count. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/31 "2011-05-13T18:19:25Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Now SHODAN knows what they think. Yow, how can you win. The DEms cut taxes, but secretly they wanted to raise them ,therefore it does not count. Not only can he can peer into their very souls, and not only can he see what they are thinking, but indeed, what they may\* potentially ever think at any time.\* This is some powerful shit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/32 "2011-05-13T18:26:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …I am, however, considering the adoption of “Demorats” as my default term. Thanks… List follows, in aphabetical order, of people who don’t give a shit. Aardvaark, Aaron A. Aardvaark, Anthony… ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/33 "2011-05-13T18:27:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, Obama and certain unnamed Congresscritters always _want_ to raise taxes - it is just that they are sometimes too frightened or incompetent to be able to do so. How could you possibly know this? What else can we look at re: Obama’s intentions regarding taxation than the bills he actually signed - which so far have included very few tax increases and massive tax cuts??? Oh, and feel free to use “Demorats”, it’s pretty much default over at freerepublic (although they also like Democraps, so you have some options). At least it would fit in with the rest of your debating skillset. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/34 "2011-05-13T18:28:37Z")
Oh, nevermind, it was probably not intended to be a factual statement. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/35 "2011-05-13T18:28:42Z")
Idiots on the right … it’s not that Democrats \*always \*want to raise taxes, it’s that they realize that sometimes taxes need to be raised. This isn’t the same as rubbing their hands together and cackling with glee because they managed to soak all the suckers they represent. As opposed to the Republican party, who thinks that taxes should never be raised for any reason. In fact, Hatch is doing the Bizzaro world thing. It’s Republicans who \*always \*want to cut taxes. If they managed to get the tax rate down to 0%, they’d start working on a plan to institute taxes in the negative per cent range. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/36 "2011-05-13T18:29:46Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > How could you possibly know this? The power of logic and reasonableness is insignificant compared to the power of **The Shodan Mind Field** ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/37 "2011-05-13T18:31:41Z")
I do have to say bravo to the Dem Senators that are getting debates (and hopefully a vote) on this. If only we could get the House on the record, too… Voted against cutting $2 bill a year from oil company subsidies. Voted for converting Medicare to a voucher system. Which priorities match yours? I really got a chuckle at my newest Senator’s rebuttal - if we eliminate these subsidies then gas prices will go up and the taxpayer’s will foot the bill. Um, aren’t we already footing the bill for the subsidies?? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/38 "2011-05-13T18:48:03Z")
> [@svd678](#): > > GOP believes all taxes are theft - they would complain about $10 a year. Actually, the anti-tax stance of many Republicans and conservatives is only a cover. Their _real_ enemy is government spending–all of it (except for defense). To many on the right, it doesn’t matter if a particular program is or isn’t wasteful or inefficient because they are diametrically opposed to the government doing anything that isn’t related to the defense of American interests or explicitly stated in the original Constitution. However, there isn’t much call for eliminating these programs if–like in late 90s–the government is running a surplus. Thus, tax cuts (which are nearly always popular) are employed so that the government will start running deficits and they’ll have a politically defensible reason to cut spending. It’s like a candy-coated cod-liver oil pill. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/39 "2011-05-13T19:02:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Their real enemy is government spending–all of it (except for defense). Or unless it’s pork for their district or for their friends. Halliburton, anyone? I realize that was supposed to be for defense…but just WHO was the Halliburton CEO? ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743/40 "2011-05-13T19:22:18Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Well I’m convinced. If they haven’t gone down for you they must not have gone down for anybody. But seriously, I’d try and find out who is stealing your [cut in SS taxes](http://www.walletpop.com/2011/01/07/bigger-paychecks-in-2011-most-taxpayers-benefit-from-payroll-ta/). You could use that money to buy an informed opinion. But an informed opinion would be so out of place surrounded by all the political knee jerk accusations and justifications of the right and left whiners on this board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orrin-hatch-either-stupid-or-lying/581743.md?page=3)