# Orson Scott Card drinks Kool-aid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366 "2006-11-06T23:09:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/1 "2006-11-06T23:09:15Z")
[Oh, my.](http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-10-29-1.html) > [@](#): > > In other words, through nation-building, through the promise of democracy, Bush has created a rallying point with far stronger resonance than anything the Islamic puritans have to offer. > [@](#): > > The reason the new power systems can’t cope is because the newly prosperous Iraqi people are buying – and plugging in – vast quantities of electrical appliances they could never afford to buy before! > [@](#): > > The frustrating thing is that if people would just look, honestly, at the readily available data from the Muslim world, they would realize that we are winning and that the course President Bush is pursuing is, in fact, the wisest one. > [@](#): > > Most of these “mistakes” are arguable – are they mistakes at all? – and when you sum up the others, with any kind of rational understanding of military history, the only possible conclusion is that this is the best-run war in history, with the fewest mistakes. > [@](#): > > It’s an astonishingly twisted game – and as long as we don’t do anything really, really stupid, like withdrawing from Iraq, all these various treacheries will inevitably lead to the fall of the tyrants in Iran, and therefore in Syria, and therefore the taming of Hezbollah in Lebanon. > [@](#): > > I hope somebody emerges in one of the parties, at least, who commits himself or herself to continuing Bush’s careful, wise, moderate, and so-far-successful policies in the War on Terror. This drivel is from the author of _Ender’s Game_? He seems to be under the impression that Bush is conducting some wildly creative crypto-war where our continued occupation of Iraq is winning hearts and minds by the millions across the Muslim world. If the Democrats take control they will demonstrate that we don’t have the heart for a fight and the terrorists will win. But if more EXTREME Republicans take over they will escalate the warfare and that will inflame the Arab world and the terrorists will win. Only George W. Bush can walk the tightrope between these too disasterous positions so skillfully! God bless our President! He also has a plan to topple the regime in Iran by knocking out their oil production facilities … . ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/2 "2006-11-06T23:15:48Z")
This has been going on for a long time. He has two weekly columns in [this publication,](http://www.rhinotimes.com/) where he regularly defends the neo-con point of view. The Rhino Times is unabashedly, extremely biased. Card self-identifies as a Democrat, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/3 "2006-11-06T23:16:00Z")
Card is, and has always been, a conservative Mormon. That doesn’t stop me from appreciating his fiction. I see no reason I should care about his politics any more than I care about the politics of any other artist. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/4 "2006-11-06T23:18:41Z")
So many people I run across seem to think that conservative Mormons are always Republicans; that the Church encourages people to join the Republican part. Not so! There are plenty of Democrats, along with members of other parties, who are both Mormons and even conservative to a degree. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/5 "2006-11-06T23:20:17Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Card is, and has always been, a conservative Mormon. That doesn’t stop me from appreciating his fiction. I see no reason I should care about his politics any more than I care about the politics of any other artist. [/QUOTE] Point taken, but still, this is surprisingly beyond the pale, even as apologetics go. Especially when you know there’s actually real grey matter on the inside. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/6 "2006-11-06T23:32:10Z")
My impression of OSC (mostly from reading his fiction), is that he can be idealistic past the point of what is realistic. I also think he’s an incurable optimist. Nice guy, basically, his heart is in the right place, but his outlook is way too sunny sometimes. I don’t get a mean-spirited neo-con feel from him so much as a “rah rah, up with people, we can make the world a better place” sort of vibe. As political commentators go, he’s a good science fiction writer. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/7 "2006-11-06T23:35:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I also think he’s an incurable optimist. Nice guy, basically, his heart is in the right place, but his outlook is way too sunny sometimes. I don’t get a mean-spirited neo-con feel from him so much as a “rah rah, up with people, we can make the world a better place” sort of vibe. [/QUOTE] If you have the time, check the archives in my link upthread. Look for “Civilization Watch.” He’s quite the moralizing bushista pedant. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/8 "2006-11-06T23:39:16Z")
Never liked him, even when I **was** a devout Mormon. ☹ It’s always refreshing when you get new data (i.e. the quotes in the OP) that _doesn’t_ force you to reevaluate your existing opinions (i.e. I think Card is a hack). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/9 "2006-11-06T23:52:02Z")
Perhaps the most pathetic single sentence: > [@](#): > > If all we had to answer them was Hollywood movies, politically correct anti-religious dogmas, and the other trappings of a West that is almost as decadent as the Islamicists claim, then we would only prove their point. He dismisses the West’s **REAL** advantage, for no reason other that trivial personal prejudices, in order to pursue the will-o-the-wisp hallucination of Bush The Master Strategerist. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/10 "2006-11-07T00:00:38Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] My impression of OSC (mostly from reading his fiction), is that he can be idealistic past the point of what is realistic. I also think he’s an incurable optimist. Nice guy, basically, his heart is in the right place, but his outlook is way too sunny sometimes. I don’t get a mean-spirited neo-con feel from him so much as a “rah rah, up with people, we can make the world a better place” sort of vibe. [/QUOTE] Have you read any of his views on gay marriage? Not such a nice guy, as it turns out. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/11 "2006-11-07T00:24:46Z")
I actually have _not_ read his views on gay marriage. I guess he’s more extreme than what I would have expected from reading his fiction. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/12 "2006-11-07T00:51:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I actually have _not_ read his views on gay marriage. I guess he’s more extreme than what I would have expected from reading his fiction. [/QUOTE] Yes, given that his fiction is fairly gay-friendly, his real-life views are quite anti-gay. I used to enjoy him hugely, and I like his old stuff, but now everything he writes seems (to me, at least) to contain allegorical political content. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/13 "2006-11-07T01:05:30Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I actually have _not_ read his views on gay marriage. I guess he’s more extreme than what I would have expected from reading his fiction. [/QUOTE] [Here you go.](http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html) It’s ostensibly about the MA supreme court decision, a topic about which I do think there is some room for reasonable disagreement, but quickly veers off into “crazy and stupid” territory. This article is why I can’t read Card anymore. I don’t have a problem with works from artists whom I can’t respect morally. I still watch and enjoy Roman Polanski movies, for example. But reading this article made it impossible for me to respect Card _intellectually_. His argument relies almost exclusively on lazy logic and deliberate ignorance. I could read a book by someone I think is evil, and still enjoy it. I cannot, as it turns out, read a book by someone I think is a moron and still enjoy it. And Card is a fucking moron. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/14 "2006-11-07T01:15:16Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I see no reason I should care about his politics any more than I care about the politics of any other artist. [/QUOTE] I’m certainly not going to boycott his books over this or anything. But if he’s writing political articles and publishing them in a public forum then it’s perfectly legit to criticize him over his politics. What stunned me about this piece is the sheer level of delusion. It would be different if he was merely arguing that the Iraq war was a good idea and that the possibility of victory still exists. I don’t agree with that position but I can at least follow the arguments that some have made along those lines. But “the best-run war” in history? The lack of electricity is the result of rocketing demand? That’s just nuts. I met Card once, BTW, about ten years ago. It was a business lunch to discuss the possibility of making a videogame out of one of his books. Nothing came of it, but he seemed like a nice enough guy at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/15 "2006-11-07T01:15:37Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] [Here you go.](http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html) It’s ostensibly about the MA supreme court decision, a topic about which I do think there is some room for reasonable disagreement, but quickly veers off into “crazy and stupid” territory. This article is why I can’t read Card anymore. I don’t have a problem with works from artists whom I can’t respect morally. I still watch and enjoy Roman Polanski movies, for example. But reading this article made it impossible for me to respect Card _intellectually_. His argument relies almost exclusively on lazy logic and deliberate ignorance. I could read a book by someone I think is evil, and still enjoy it. I cannot, as it turns out, read a book by someone I think is a moron and still enjoy it. And Card is a fucking moron. [/QUOTE] You’re right. That article is completely idiotic. He actually used the “gays can still marry the opposite sex so it isn’t discrimination” argument. I had to stop reading when I got to the phrase “war on marriage.” That’s like something Bill O’Reilly would say. I always thought he was more intelligent than that. How disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/16 "2006-11-07T01:18:25Z")
To be honest I find Card to be a cruel and vindictive writer, punishing his characters for any weakness whatsoever. It doesn’t surprise me that his politics would tend to this direction. He can tell a story, though. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/17 "2006-11-07T01:31:28Z")
> [@Orson Scott Card](#): > > I hope somebody emerges in one of the parties, at least, who commits himself or herself to continuing **Bush’s careful, wise, moderate, and so-far-successful policies** in the War on Terror. :eek: I haven’t read a Card novel in a while (I got burned out on all the _Ender_ sequels), though I won’t expect this to dissuade me one way or another. But this statement is just so mind-numbingly clueless in its detatchment from reality… ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/18 "2006-11-07T01:45:37Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I had to stop reading when I got to the phrase “war on marriage.” That’s like something Bill O’Reilly would say. I always thought he was more intelligent than that. How disappointing. [/QUOTE] He goes on to emphasize the importantance of a two-parent family - father and mother, that only those raised in such a family can learn appropriate sexual roles, that our society depends on marriage as a reproductive strategy, and that only those who believe as he does are capable of raising children to “loyalty and oath-keeping and self-control and self-sacrifice.” He also issues a threat to stop recognizing the legitimacy of government if it does not enforce his beliefs. I had not read that, **Miller** , and, in a way, I’m sorry I have. I shan’t be able to think of him the same way again. This bothers me much more than his equally inane thoughts on the war. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/19 "2006-11-07T02:20:11Z")
War on marriage? _sigh_ You know, for folks who are at war with marriage, we sure seem to be keen on getting married. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/20 "2006-11-07T02:40:20Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] War on marriage? _sigh_ You know, for folks who are at war with marriage, we sure seem to be keen on getting married. [/QUOTE] Ah, it’s all a smokescreen for that “burrow from within” part of the Gay Agenda to Destroy Marriage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366.md?page=2)