# Orson Scott Card drinks Kool-aid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366 "2006-11-06T23:09:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/41 "2006-11-07T14:54:04Z")
I had no idea, honestly. I don’t think he’s harsh in his books and I really enjoy them. I’ve read several, the Ender’s series up to Xenocide (the ones after that got weird), as well as Shadow, plus another one whose title I can’t remember right now but it was a marvelous book about a dead child. I didn’t know he was capable of this sort of mind-boggling stupidity. I can’t do anything about the books I’ve already bought of his, but I don’t think I’ll be buying any more of his, either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/42 "2006-11-07T15:05:50Z")
I read a lot of his stuff as a teenager. And then I started reading author’s notes, and realized that I thought he was a total tool. His fiction still entertained me, though. It’s been many years since I’ve read anything by him, but a few of his short stories (“The Porcelain Salamander” and “Unaccompanied Sonata”) still haunt me. I had a professor in college who was a minor science fiction author. At some point I mentioned Card to him, and he went off on a rant about what an asshole Card was in person. I don’t know whether it was specific bad blood between them or whether Card really is despised among the author community (they’d met at some workshop or conference or something), but the rant was pretty fun. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/43 "2006-11-07T15:06:27Z")
I really liked **Ender’s Game** the short story. I thought the book was OK. Because of name recognition, I read some other books by him. Meh. In the end, I found out the more I read of Card, the less I liked. This is my first exposure to his Celebrity Political Pundit writing. The trend continues. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/44 "2006-11-07T15:40:31Z")
Ender’s Game is one of those books that seems like the coolest book you ever read when you read it in 9th grade but none of the endless sequels really hold up as well (Ender’s Shadow is ok, but it’s essentially the same story as the first book from a different character’s point of view). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/45 "2006-11-07T15:58:31Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Ender’s Game is one of those books that seems like the coolest book you ever read when you read it in 9th grade but none of the endless sequels really hold up as well (Ender’s Shadow is ok, but it’s essentially the same story as the first book from a different character’s point of view). [/QUOTE] It’s kinda funny reading his preface to the new edition (well, new many years ago). In it, he goes on and on about how he’s been criticized by education experts for his unrealistic depiction of brilliant children. Instead of responding to that by thwapping the experts upside the head and saying, “Newsflash: FICTION!” he retorts that he’s gotten a lot of letters from smart kids saying that Ender reminds them of themselves, and therefore he’s obviously got it right. Not real convincing, Or. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/46 "2006-11-07T16:05:34Z")
That is one thing about those books that didn’t quite ring as believable to me either. I think the kids needed to be just a little bit older. Ten year olds would be credible. Five and six year olds…not so much. That’s also one of the things that makes the book hard to adapt as a movie. You have to grow the kids up a little bit or you’ll never be able to cast it. ---
**Author:** ![MrJackboots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MrJackboots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrJackboots)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/47 "2006-11-07T16:21:01Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] I had a professor in college who was a minor science fiction author. At some point I mentioned Card to him, and he went off on a rant about what an asshole Card was in person. I don’t know whether it was specific bad blood between them or whether Card really is despised among the author community (they’d met at some workshop or conference or something), but the rant was pretty fun. [/QUOTE] [Did it sound anything like this?](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034) ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/48 "2006-11-07T16:38:22Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] To be honest I find Card to be a cruel and vindictive writer, punishing his characters for any weakness whatsoever. [/QUOTE] Lovely comment. “My characters cringe when I come near them. I’ve seen whole avenues of imagined trees lose their leaves with terror at my approach.”–V. Nabokov ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/49 "2006-11-07T16:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=MrJackboots] [Did it sound anything like this?](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034) [/QUOTE] Strange article. Card may be an asshole but reading Ender’s Game as an apology for Hitler? That sounds like a stretch to me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/50 "2006-11-07T18:12:12Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Strange article. Card may be an asshole but reading Ender’s Game as an apology for Hitler? That sounds like a stretch to me. [/QUOTE] Me too–and the “I’m so innocent” game that Elaine appears to have played, pretending that she was addressing the book and not the author, is ridiculous. Calling someone a Hitler apologist is a mortal insult, and you can’t pretend that it’s anything else. I’ve not read the essay, but the defense of it in the link makes it sound tinfoil-hattish. The idea that you can find these links in the footnotes of Hitler biographies really means that, if you want to find these links, you have to expand your source material dramatically. It’s pretty stupid. I wrote a fun essay in college applying Isaiah Berlin’s “Fox and Hedgehog” political theory to _Starship Troopers_ and _Ender’s Game_, arguing that the former was a hedgehog book and the latter was a fox book. I don’t know if I’d still believe it, but that’s at least a defensible position. Suggesting that some committee wrote Ender’s Game as a defense of Hitler and that Card wasn’t aware of it is borderline delusional. No, my professor’s rant was that Orson Scott Card was an insufferable egomaniac who dripped with contempt, sneered at his peers, and refused to accept any critique, no matter how constructive, of his own work. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/51 "2006-11-07T18:13:16Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] I’ve not read the essay [/QUOTE] (Elaine’s essay, not the linked description of it–I’ve read the description of it). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/52 "2006-11-07T19:18:00Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] No, my professor’s rant was that Orson Scott Card was an insufferable egomaniac who dripped with contempt, sneered at his peers, and refused to accept any critique, no matter how constructive, of his own work. Daniel [/QUOTE] That, plus M. Night Shyamalan ripped him off with _The Sixth Sense_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/53 "2006-11-07T19:21:54Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] That, plus M. Night Shyamalan ripped him off with _The Sixth Sense_. [/QUOTE] Ripped off my professor? Nah–the guy had quite an ego, but he also had a sense of humor about it for the most part and was pretty easygoing. Not the sort to go in for that sort of thing. Ripped off Orson Scott Card? Do tell. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![MrJackboots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MrJackboots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrJackboots)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/54 "2006-11-07T19:36:49Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Strange article. Card may be an asshole but reading Ender’s Game as an apology for Hitler? That sounds like a stretch to me. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t talking about the Hitler-apologia accusations (though I’ll happily agree to Kessel’s idea that _Ender_ is a nerdish violent-revenge fantasy). I’ll have to read _Sympathy for the Superman_ and Card’s reply before I pass judgement on that. The postscript is a different sort of story, though. I wasn’t there and don’t know much about it, but it does sound… ehr… questionable, and vaguely in line with what **LHoD** ’s professor said. It sounds like an exaggerated response to an exaggerated provocation. Or I could be crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/55 "2006-11-07T19:43:37Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Ripped off my professor? Nah–the guy had quite an ego, but he also had a sense of humor about it for the most part and was pretty easygoing. Not the sort to go in for that sort of thing. Ripped off Orson Scott Card? Do tell. Daniel [/QUOTE] I can’t find a cite right now. As I said, he is a columnist for a local rag, but it’s online archives are scant. Apparently, the twist in T\*he Sixth Sense \*is similar to a plot point in T **he Lost Boys.** I have not read the book, but he makes a bit of hay in the _Rhino Times_ with charges of plagiarism. He has never pursued it beyond that, AFAIK. Here’s a Wiki cite, FWIW. > [@](#): > > In recent years, M. Night Shyamalan has been accused of plagiarism. It has been noted that The Sixth Sense resembles the Orson Scott Card novel Lost Boys[36]. Robert McIlhinney, a Pennsylvania screenwriter, sued Shyamalan over the similarity of Signs to his unpublished script “Lord Of The Barrens”[4]. Margaret Peterson Haddix considered a lawsuit after it was noted that The Village had many elements found in her novel Running Out of Time. [5] > **[M. Night Shyamalan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Night_Shyamalan)** > > Manoj Nelliyattu .mw-parser-output .nobold{font-weight:normal}"M. Night" Shyamalan (/ˈʃɑːməlɑːn/ SHAH-mə-lahn, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Malayalam: \[mɐnoːdʒ n̪elːijaːʈːə̆ ʃ(j)aːmɐɭɐn\]; born August 6, 1970) is an American filmmaker and actor. His films often employ supernatural plots and twist endings. The cumulative gr Shyama... ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/56 "2006-11-07T22:51:30Z")
I’ve heard the plot of every OSC book ever written summed up as “Boy Wonder Saves The World”, which is a perspective that has enough validity to completely destroy _Ender’s Shadow_ for me. I thought the idea of writing the same book from a completely different perspective was interesting, but if every time you do it you turn your new narrator into the REAL WonderKid™ , making the last hero just some guy who was kinda bright but not really the best, that seems to be a betrayal of the original novel. Re: M Night Shyalaman ripping off Lost Boys? It was the first thing I thought of when I saw The Sixth Sense, but realistically there’s exactly one similarity (“I see dead people”) and that’s it. Admittedly that’s the major plot point, but they diverge so far from there as to be nothing like each other. I’ll buy “inspired by”, but “ripped off” is ridiculous, and I’m not surprised OSC never tried to pursue it in the courts. (_Lost Boys_ is also a fucking excellent Horror/Suspense novel, BTW, and probably his best book since _Ender_, IMO. I keep trying to recommend it to people, but none of my friends like scary shit…) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/57 "2006-11-07T23:05:34Z")
[QUOTE=Aspidistra] I’ll buy “inspired by”, but “ripped off” is ridiculous, and I’m not surprised OSC never tried to pursue it in the courts. [/QUOTE] He brayed and pissed and moaned about it where it did not matter, but is silent where it would matter. If he believes it is plagiarism he should pursue it or be quiet. IMHO. > [@](#): > > (_Lost Boys_ is also a fucking excellent Horror/Suspense novel, BTW, and probably his best book since _Ender_, IMO. I keep trying to recommend it to people, but none of my friends like scary shit…) I like scary shit but I can’t bring myself to feather his nest. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/58 "2006-11-08T00:19:52Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I like scary shit but I can’t bring myself to feather his nest. [/QUOTE] After reading that article\* I can sure see your point. Which is a shame, because 90% of the time I really like him as an author \*most of that article. I had to stop after “best-run war in history” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/59 "2006-11-08T00:39:12Z")
[QUOTE=Aspidistra] \*most of that article. I had to stop after “best-run war in history” [/QUOTE] Now _that_’s some scary shit. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366/60 "2006-11-08T22:57:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sublight] This isn’t a whoosh? It reads like ham-fisted sarcasm that’s trying to achieve parody status. It seriously sounds like one of SNL’s old Baghdad Bob skits. [/QUOTE] Yeah, it sounds like a whoosh to me too… though I admit, I’m not up on his political writings or later fiction writings. But back in the 1980s, he was publicly very _opposed_ to the sort of Moral Majority crap that the Bushistas cram down our throats, so it’s startling to think he’s done such a turnaround and has now gone to The Dark Side so thoroughly ☹ I had the privilege of meeting him at a few SF conventions and he does present, in person, as a thoroughly likeable, personable, well-thought-out guy. If the above isn’t a whoosh, I’ve lost a great deal of respect for him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-scott-card-drinks-kool-aid/379366.md?page=4)