# Orson Welles and face paint: What was the deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 20, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775 "2006-01-20T03:14:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fortean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fortean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fortean)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/21 "2006-01-20T12:07:43Z")
Yup, it’s really excellent. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/22 "2006-01-20T14:36:59Z")
Is’nt it a long standing tradition in Shakespeare for the actor to don the face make-up to do Othello? I love that scene in The Dresser, a great movie btw. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/23 "2006-01-20T14:53:01Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Welles also directed a famous version of _[Macbeth](http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/fedtp/ftsmth00.html)_ in 1936, reset in Haiti with an all-black cast. That was one of those “the heart’s in the right place, I suppose” moments. Government monies were used to fund an all black theatrical troupe and production (to the princely amount of $2,000), but of course it had to have a white director/producer (just as black regiments in the Civil War had to have white officers). Odd how recently that was. Still, if the black cast had to have white leadership, they at least lucked out with Orson Welles and John Houseman (who is often screwed over for his achievements with his friend/enemy Welles), for they were two extremely talented men. One of the stars of that production was Helen Martin, a character actress and dancer who had her biggest success as an old lady appearing in recurring roles such as “Weepin’ Wanda” on _Good Times_ and as a regular on _227_ (Pearl, the downstairs neighbor). She worked with Welles many times on stage and became a popular guest on talk-shows in her 80s for her tales of him, blacks on Broadway in her life, and her willingness to dance or talk about her ongoing enjoyment of pot (“I’m not gonna lie, I _love_ reefer!” to the audience’s going wild), etc… She died in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/24 "2006-01-20T16:10:22Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > If anyone earned the right to be grandiose, pompous, and even an asshole, it’s him. But that doesn’t mean we can’t laugh at him for it. 😉 Absolutely true, and Charlton Heston is about as un-Mexican as it gets. I’m not saying it isn’t funny. And yeah, the pomposity is funny, too. Same qualities that make for artistic brilliance and all. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/25 "2006-01-20T17:08:06Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > [li] **Othello** : I didn’t know that by 1952, it was still impossible (or even very hard) for a director to get a black actor to play what is, for all intents and purposes, a black role. I also didn’t know that the definition of ‘moor’ in this context was ever disputed. (I should have known better. It seems that _everything_ in the context of Shakespeare is disputed, even Shakespeare. ;)) I also didn’t know any of the other great white actors who have played the Moor of Venice.[/li] > However, it still reeks of self-aggrandizement and _prima-donna_ism. Directing and starring in a movie based on the work of the greatest playwright in the history of the English language would seem to take enough gall to float a supertanker. IOW, you admit that you don’t have the tiniest, vaguest understanding of what you’re talking about, but you’re not going to let that change your mind. [sigh] What happens when you learn that all those “Indian” stars in all those thousands of westerns were skin-darkened white actors? Or that all those “Asian” stars in hundreds of movies about the Far East were skin-darkened white stars? Or that all those Arab sheiks in those sand and sin epics were skin-darkened white stars? Or that theaters all over the South (and some theaters elsewhere) literally would not screen any film that had black actors in any but a subservient or comic role until probably the 1960s? Or that this attitude wasn’t confined to the U.S.? That the Royal Shakespeare Company at the Royal Shakespeare Theater didn’t feature its first production of Othello with a black lead until Paul Robeson in 1959? Or that its second such production featured Ray Fearon. In 1999? The system was horrendous and worth vilifying. But you’re directing your anger (nothing about your posts indicate they were jokes) at the worst possible target, with no sign of apology or remorse. **Fortean** , your link doesn’t work but the IMDb lists a 1990 Othello with those actors. However, it’s listed as a TV production, which is why I didn’t include it as a major movie version. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/26 "2006-01-21T02:43:30Z")
**Exapno Mapcase** , get over yourself. I never said anything remotely like what you put into my mouth, and if you want to claim I did this certainly isn’t the place for that kind of crap. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/27 "2006-01-21T04:06:58Z")
A reason for Orson Welles to cast himself as the lead in a movie: Um, he’s Orson Welles? I never needed any more explanation. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/28 "2006-01-21T05:31:51Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **Exapno Mapcase** , get over yourself. I never said anything remotely like what you put into my mouth, and if you want to claim I did this certainly isn’t the place for that kind of crap. Nonetheless. “Laughing at” Orson Welles (your own words) for not being 50 years ahead of the curve when it comes to PC casting is, well, laughable. Let’s “laugh at” the Elizabethans for casting males in all the female roles. Hullo? Weren’t there any chicks in London? How pompous and grandiose! My snark is exaggerated to make a point. Your perspective, Derleth, is pretty dang arrogant in its own right. Your assumption that your limited view on the proprieties of historical casting practices is the only possible view is, well, arrogant. With a little humility, you might watch _Othello or Touch of Evil_ and go, “Huh. That’s interesting. I wonder what the cultural context of Welles’s casting choices was?” rather than, yes, _arrogantly_, pointing and laughing. Not everyone likes old movies. But everyone who does understands that you can’t watch an old movie without the fundamental acknowledgment that it is a reflection of a different time. You can’t dismiss all of John Ford because he didn’t anticipate the women’s movement. Not every film is going to fulfill every political agenda for every member of its once and future audience. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/29 "2006-01-21T05:59:20Z")
Oh, come off it. Why is it so un-PC of me to laugh at some situation I think is funny? I love a lot more ‘old’ movies (for whatever definition of ‘old’ you wish to employ) than most people in the US, judging by what seems to get advertised on TV, and I damn well know who Orson Welles was and what he accomplished. This idea that we can’t appreciate a man and laugh at him at the same time is itself laughable, no matter how aghast people like you and **Exapno** seem to become whenever anyone points that out. Your calling me arrogant is simply absurd. _You_ and **Exapno** are the ones desperately clawing your way to the illusory ‘high ground’ of this argument you and **Exapno** appear to want to start, _you_ and **Exapno** are the ones calling me an uncultured fool for having the temerity to laugh at someone like Welles, and _you_ and **Exapno** are the only ones who _refuse_ to see the humor in the situation. There is no argument here. There are two people trying to start a fight and the rest of the people either ignoring them or attempting to push them back on the right track. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/30 "2006-01-21T08:03:56Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > There is no argument here. There are two people trying to start a fight and the rest of the people either ignoring them or attempting to push them back on the right track. Really? I could have sworn that there was one poster making a wrongheaded argument and the rest pointing out how foolish that argument was. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/31 "2006-01-21T09:13:27Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Oh, come off it. Why is it so un-PC of me to laugh at some situation I think is funny? You might want to reread; I suggested that YOU are being inappropriately PC. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/32 "2006-01-21T15:19:32Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Really? > > I could have sworn that there was one poster making a wrongheaded argument and the rest pointing out how foolish that argument was. Similarly looking around for all the people who are supporting **Derleth** and finding a great empty void… Maybe it’s just me, but I feel like there’s been an increase in people posting a rant that nobody agrees with, who then lash out at all the posters who call them on it. I’m sure it’s mortifying to be caught out like this in public, but you make it a hundred times worse by stamping your little foot and throwing a tantrum. If you want to be treated like an adult, step up and admit you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/33 "2006-01-21T18:14:44Z")
**Derleth** , go watch some more live theater. Attend some auditions. Read some scripts and imagine how you’d cast them, then see who’s _really_ in it. You’d be surprised how often you’d hear a director say, “Well, we didn’t get a 70-year-old man to play Lear… let’s find a 40-year-old who can do the part and put some wrinkles on him.” Or “we didn’t have enough men auditioning for Henry IV Part I, so we’ll re-cast Poins as a woman, 'cos we had plenty of those show up.” Or, “Hey, can you do a Scottish accent?” I’m about to play a 41-year-old humor columnist from New York who has been married for 21 years. He and his wife are engaged in a screwy, farcical power struggle to see which one of them will back down first (with inevitable hilarious results, etc). I’m only 34, never even been to New York, never been married, and I’m not the kind of person this guy is _at all_ That’s what acting _is_, man. Casting directors for modern TV and movies have it easy. Take Dr. Strangelove. Peter Sellers was originally supposed to play Major Kong with a Texas accent. Sellers hurt himself, so the casting director said, “Jeez, we need somebody who can do a Texas accent. Find me Slim Pickens.” Is that _acting_ when you just find the guy who happens to look and sound the part? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/34 "2006-01-21T18:28:14Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > **Derleth** , go watch some more live theater. Attend some auditions. Read some scripts and imagine how you’d cast them, then see who’s _really_ in it. You’d be surprised how often you’d hear a director say, “Well, we didn’t get a 70-year-old man to play Lear… let’s find a 40-year-old who can do the part and put some wrinkles on him.” Or “we didn’t have enough men auditioning for Henry IV Part I, so we’ll re-cast Poins as a woman, 'cos we had plenty of those show up.” Or, “Hey, can you do a Scottish accent?” > > I’m about to play a 41-year-old humor columnist from New York who has been married for 21 years. He and his wife are engaged in a screwy, farcical power struggle to see which one of them will back down first (with inevitable hilarious results, etc). I’m only 34, never even been to New York, never been married, and I’m not the kind of person this guy is _at all_ > > That’s what acting _is_, man. > > Casting directors for modern TV and movies have it easy. Take Dr. Strangelove. Peter Sellers was originally supposed to play Major Kong with a Texas accent. Sellers hurt himself, so the casting director said, “Jeez, we need somebody who can do a Texas accent. Find me Slim Pickens.” > > Is that _acting_ when you just find the guy who happens to look and sound the part? THis was kind of my point when I mentioned PC casting. This “law” that you can only cast an Asian in an Asian role–or even, witness the whining about Memoirs of a Geisha–a Japanese as a Japanese–is recent; post PC. Before this political rigidity was imposed upon theatrical casting by PC offense-seekers, any actor was limited only buy his/her ability to ACT a role. In addition, just because minstrel shows (which made use of blackface) were racist, does not mean that any actor playing across race “boundaries” is also racist. An early 20th century vaudevillian slapping on shoe polish in order to tell pickaninny-with-a-watermelon jokes is a world away from Orson Welles playing one of the greatest roles in Western literature. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775/35 "2006-01-21T20:31:09Z")
Oiks. > [@lissener](#): > > . . . a towering masterpiece [del] nearly[/del] utterly without parallel and nearly without peer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orson-welles-and-face-paint-what-was-the-deal/340775.md?page=1)