# Orthodox Jewish Sabbath **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 18, 2007, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572 "2007-05-18T08:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/21 "2007-05-19T19:28:39Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Second, just to remind everyone that questions posted today (Saturday) won’t be answered by traditional sabbath-observant Jews until tomorrow, so be patient. [/QUOTE] Yes, we need “Dex’s rule” (like Guadere’s rule) which states that most of the interesting Jewish-type questions will be asked on or right before the Sabbath. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/22 "2007-05-19T19:43:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Driving was, of course, not an option, but why were taking a bus (which was going to be running anyway) or having non-Jewish friends who were also attending pick me up on the way there not viable options? I don’t know about getting a ride from friends (that seems to be in the same category as the gangplank example), but riding a bus would presumably involve paying a fare, and I think that spending money is one of the Sabbath-prohibited activities. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/23 "2007-05-19T23:49:52Z")
And the other half is that you’re not supposed to _ask_ a gentile to do something you can’t do yourself. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/24 "2007-05-20T02:19:36Z")
First, let me just note that there are volumes – literally, volumes – written about traditional sabbath observance. The rules are lengthy and complicated. [QUOTE=Fear Itself] What are the consequences for breaking a Sabbath rule? [/QUOTE] Well… for the last 2000 years or so, the consequences are between the offender and God. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/25 "2007-05-20T02:24:18Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Well… for the last 2000 years or so, the consequences are between the offender and God. [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t you have problems with your Orthodox Temple if you started praticing like a Reform Jew? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/26 "2007-05-20T02:46:23Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Well… for the last 2000 years or so, the consequences are between the offender and God. [/QUOTE] What happens in Shabbat stays in Shabbat… ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/27 "2007-05-20T05:11:45Z")
Thanks for the kind words, y’all! **StarvingButStrong** , this is something I mentioned in the first draft of the report, but got edited out for including too much detail - for something to be forbidden as Sabbath work, it must have a permanent effect, or be done in a manner which could, potentially, have a permanent effect. Shoelace-tying is a perfect example - most clothing knots, zippers, or snaps do not fall under that category (in the case of the “tying” category, the general guideline is if it can be undone with one hand it’s not a permanent-style knot). But careful - do not double-knot your shoes! A bow over a knot is OK (single bows can be undone by simple pulling, and then there’s just one knot, which will come loose easily), but not more than that. **DrDeth** , Shabbos goyim can violate Rabbinic prohibitions on a Jew’s behalf, but not Biblical ones. Asking a non-Jew to violate Sabbath is itself a Rabbinic prohibition, and generally, for limited purposes (e.g., performace of a commandment, or relieving significant discomfort), acts that are “doubly separated” from Biblical prohibition are permitted. **Fear Itself** , when duly-ordained Rabbinical courts existed, the penalty for flagrant, intentional violation was stoning; mistaken violators needed to offer an atonement sacrifice (when the Holy Temple stood). Nowadays, as Dex said, it’s between man and G-d, though if one is particularly flagrant and unrepentant about it, he might find himself ostracized by the Orthodox community - even, sometimes, to the point of his corpse being buried separately from the properly-observant. **Eva Luna** , those actually might be options - few months ago, my son injured his ankle on Friday afternoon, and my Rabbi said that if I wasn’t out of the hospital before Sabbath commenced, I could have a taxi bring us home, including giving him money (which I in fact did). Nonetheless, I don’t know that for attending a Bar Mitzvah a Rabbi would give similar advice. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/28 "2007-05-20T13:56:02Z")
Well done **cmkeller**. Across the street from me - I live in the centre of Jewish Melbourne - is an alcove with a couple of vending machines in it. The door is shut until after sundown on Saturday. Is this to do with work or not tempting less observant Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/29 "2007-05-20T14:55:40Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] **Eva Luna** , those actually might be options - few months ago, my son injured his ankle on Friday afternoon, and my Rabbi said that if I wasn’t out of the hospital before Sabbath commenced, I could have a taxi bring us home, including giving him money (which I in fact did). Nonetheless, I don’t know that for attending a Bar Mitzvah a Rabbi would give similar advice. [/QUOTE] Well, my friend’s husband is a rabbi, and I’m sure that if there were alternatives that were acceptable in his flavor of Orthodox Judaism, someone would have mentioned tham. As the kid is getting married right about now, I think the point is a little moot anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/30 "2007-05-20T15:32:54Z")
It probably should be commented that all such rules and prohibitions are waived where life/health are at stake. If an observant Jew is having a heart attack on sabbath, they certainly call for help, ride in the ambulance, etc and don’t quibble about it. ---
**Author:** ![mberow2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mberow2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mberow2)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/31 "2007-05-20T19:18:53Z")
cmkeller gave a wonderfully succinct explanation of Sabbath observance, but gave a common mistake explaining the nature of an eruv. To say an eruv is just wires and poles gives a false impression of Jewish law. An eruv is a mutually consensual joining of individual private domains. The image you should use is of apartments or townhouses surrounding a plaza and connecting by an alley to a main street. The residents would pool some of their food before the Sabbath. This signified their granting of limited ownership rights of their property to their neighbors. By sharing ownership the residents could carry items between apartments and in the central plaza. The pooled food was the eruv and the walls surrounding the compound marked the boundaries. Today, the telephone, power or cable TV wires, along with vertical attachments to the poles, form minimalist walls, a series of gateways; and several boxes of matzoh are the actual eruv. If you aren’t making contributions to the group that built and maintains the eruv, you haven’t bought in and should not be carrying on the Sabbath. Additionally, no one has directly stated the concept of v’chai ba-hem, and you shall live within them. Jewish law has only three absolutes that cannot be compromised, murder, idolatry and prohibited sexual pairings. Everything else can be compromised to save or potentially save a life. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/32 "2007-05-21T13:11:00Z")
**hawethorne** , if the vending machines are owned by observant Jews, that’s very likely the reason, to avoid causing less-observant Jews to sin. Also, it is said that one will not see blessing from money earned on Sabbath, that might also factor in. **mberow2** , you are accurately describing an _Eruv Chatzerot_, but that is not what city-wide or neighborhood-wide “eruvin” are. The word “eruv” to describe a series of doorway-forms (Tzurot Hapesach) surrounding an open area and thereby making it a private domain (and does not require the food to be held in partnership) is technically a misnomer, but it has entered the vernacular as such, and I chose to use the common term in the Staff Report rather than delve into the technicalities of what is or isn’t a true eruv. The questioner’s primary point of curiosity (one of them, at least) was how using such a “loophole” to circumvent Sabbath restriction is in keeping with the spirit of Sabbath, and the one he or she is most likely to have encountered is the Tzurat Hapesach, not the Eruv Chatzerot. In the same vein, mentioning “Vachai Bahem” was not relevant to this report, as no one was asking about emergencies. ---
**Author:** ![Booker57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Booker57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Booker57)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/33 "2007-05-21T15:04:33Z")
[QUOTE=mberow2] Additionally, no one has directly stated the concept of v’chai ba-hem, and you shall live within them. Jewish law has only three absolutes that cannot be compromised, murder, idolatry and prohibited sexual pairings. Everything else can be compromised to save or potentially save a life. [/QUOTE] The first two I understand, please explain the third. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/34 "2007-05-21T19:23:00Z")
Oops ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/35 "2007-05-21T19:26:45Z")
**Booker57** , it is derived from Biblical verses, like pretty much everything in Jewish law. In this case, it is Deuteronomy 22:26, which likens adultery to murder. The traditional interpretation of that has included the notion that just as one may not murder another to save his own life, one may also not engage in adulterous, incestuous or male homosexual relations to save one’s own life. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/36 "2007-05-21T20:46:43Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] …just as one may not murder another to save his own life… [/QUOTE] I guarantee you that people are going to misunderstand that as saying that the Talmud admits no right of self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/37 "2007-05-21T21:26:18Z")
Good point. Clarification: one may kill someone who is _trying_ to kill him. One may not kill an uninvolved party in order to save one’s life, e.g., bad guy says, “Kill X or I’ll kill you”, you must allow bad guy to kill you rather then murder X. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/38 "2007-05-21T22:09:29Z")
Some questions about what is allowed on the Sabbath. I love learning about these sort of minutiae. Very fascinating! > [@cmkeller](#): > > In keeping with that spirit, Sabbath-observant Jews spend the day praying, studying the Torah, talking, playing and connecting with family and friends in a way that’s less modern but more personal. Does “studying the Torah” include taking notes? What if the notes are on something impermanent, like a whiteboard? Are you allowed to learn (a creative act, at least sometimes?) something on the Sabbath? Does praying ever involve candles or incense? Can a fire be maintained throughout the Sabbath, if no fuel is actively added? How do chemical heat sources fit in? For instance, the heating pads that are activated by shaking, but do not have any actual fire. Also, what about chemical light sources (glow sticks)? They are activated by breaking the internal glass vial, a destructive act. No fire involved. Are phosphorescent lights allowed (charge them in the sun, then carry to a dark room)? Or, is adjusting a mirror to reflect sunlight permitted? And finally, are marital relations allowed on the Sabbath? Maybe not, because it’s people that built the Temple, and making more people would seem to be work. So maybe contraceptives would be required on the Sabbath. I assume delivering babies falls under the medical exemption, but maybe inducing labor on the Sabbath is usually a no-no. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/39 "2007-05-22T01:15:28Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] Some questions about what is allowed on the Sabbath. I love learning about these sort of minutiae. Very fascinating!Does “studying the Torah” include taking notes? What if the notes are on something impermanent, like a whiteboard? Are you allowed to learn (a creative act, at least sometimes?) something on the Sabbath? [/quote] Learning and studying are highly encouraged on Shabbat. Writing, drawing, painting, etc. are classified as work and are prohibited. > [@](#): > > Does praying ever involve candles or incense? Can a fire be maintained throughout the Sabbath, if no fuel is actively added? Shabbat and festivals all begin with lighting candles. After that, a fire (including candles and electric lights) may be allowed to keep going on its own. Providing more (or less) fuel or air is classified as work. > [@](#): > > How do chemical heat sources fit in? For instance, the heating pads that are activated by shaking, but do not have any actual fire. Also, what about chemical light sources (glow sticks)? They are activated by breaking the internal glass vial, a destructive act. No fire involved. Are phosphorescent lights allowed (charge them in the sun, then carry to a dark room)? Or, is adjusting a mirror to reflect sunlight permitted? I never thought about that. I’m curious about the answers. (My quick guesses: No to chemical heat and light sources; maybe to glow-in-the-dark light sources, if they were set out before Shabbat; yes to mirrors.) > [@](#): > > And finally, are marital relations allowed on the Sabbath? Maybe not, because it’s people that built the Temple, and making more people would seem to be work. So maybe contraceptives would be required on the Sabbath. I assume delivering babies falls under the medical exemption, but maybe inducing labor on the Sabbath is usually a no-no. It’s considered a double mitzvah on Shabbat! ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/40 "2007-05-22T07:45:33Z")
**Pleonast** : Lots of good questions here. **Scuba\_Ben** answered them for the most part, but just to clarify: 1. Learning can indeed be constructive, as can sex. However, they do not fall into any of the 39 defined categories of “Melakha.” Learning improves the spiritual (or, if you prefer, mental) world, not the physical world (at least not directly). Sex of course creates people, but people are more than merely workers. The operations derived from creation of the Tabernacle are the operations necessary to create or operate things that were specifically for Tabernacle usage. 2. Writing on a whiteboard is still considered to be “in a permenent fashion” because it requires an intentional act of erasure to remove it. Even writing on an Etch-a-Sketch is permanent enough to be forbidden on Sabbath. In the writing category, the “non-permanent” exemption would apply to something like arranging fine sand to form a letter or image, or to placing Scrabble tiles next to one another on a flat board. 3. Inducing labor in a pre-planned fashion should not be scheduled for Sabbath. 4. Candles are lit before Sabbath; it is also customary to have lit candles at the cantor’s area during prayer services. However, to light such candles would not be permitted on Sabbath. Allowing a fire to be maintained on Sabbath through an automatic, steady flow of fuel is allowed, as long as it is not possible for a person to adjust the flow or add fuel. 5. Chemical heat like you describe would be questionable whether or not it falls into the “kindling” category (the cause of much debate over electricity - is the essence of kindling the creation of heat, or the consuming of fuel - would also apply here), but I suspect it would be disallowed under the “cooking” category, as the heat probably has some effect on the chemicals. I can’t be certain of that, though. Chemical light is an interesting question; I am unaware of any category of melakha whose essence is to create light itself (as opposed to light being a by-product of fire or red hot glowing metal or gas), so I’m inclined to say it would be OK, but I’m not a Rabbi. The phosphorescent light I’m inclined to say it would be OK to bring into a dark room, but I’m not so sure that charging it up in sunlight would be allowed. Adjusting mirrors is definitely fine, at least that I know. Some very interesting things to think about, at least. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572.md?page=3)