# Orthodox Jewish Sabbath **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 18, 2007, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572 "2007-05-18T08:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/41 "2007-05-22T12:07:43Z")
I’m glad I stumbled upon this thread, but I don’t understand which Staff Report it follows from. From what I can tell, the Staff Report for May 18 was [What’s the fastest-acting, most lethal poison?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/070518.html) I do thank **Scuba\_Ben** for posting a link to the article way back above in post #3, but I would like to know how he and others saw it. There’s no link to it on the [Straight Dope homepage](http://www.straightdope.com), or at least, not on the version of the homepage that I see. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/42 "2007-05-22T12:11:55Z")
**Keeve** , it’s going to be posted on the front page some time today. But people on the mailing list get a preview via a link in their e-mail. (The poison one is a Cecil column, not a Staff Report.) Update: 8:13 AM EDT, I see it on the front page now. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/43 "2007-05-22T12:21:46Z")
Regarding the comments by **cmkeller** and **mberow2** about the eruv: I agree that there’s nothing wrong with using the word “eruv” in its colloquial sense like **cmkeller** did, but **mberow2** is bringing an important technical point about which **cmkeller** seems to be mistaken. Namely: If one has a neighborhood surrounded by these virtual doorframes, that is not sufficient to allow carrying objects, because of the multiple ownerships of the properties within. Although it is technically a “private area”, it is actually an “enclosed area of multiple ownership”, and carrying will not be allowed until the “Eruv Chatzerot” is made. In other words, in order to carry outside one’s home, he needs both aspects: The real or artificial enclosure (such as the walls of an apartment building or the doorframes of the poles-and-wires) and also the shared ownership (such as described by **mberow2** ). ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/44 "2007-05-22T12:42:55Z")
**Keeve** , that’s true of _shared_ properties, like the classical Talmudic common courtyard. That’s not the halacha by which the city-wide “Eruvin” are justified. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/45 "2007-05-22T13:21:45Z")
**cmkeller** , perhaps I’m misunderstanding you. If shared properties need an Eruv Chatzeirot, then unshared properties (such as the homes within the enclosed area) certainly do. For example, see “The 39 Melochos” by Rabbi Dovid Ribiat (mentioned in the References section of the Staff Report) which says on page 1373: “Similarly, an enclosed bungalow colony (i.e. one encircled by fencing, partitions, or a Tzuras Hapesach) in which the residents have separate kitchens and dining rooms requires an Eruv.” From the context there, it is clear that by “Eruv” he means “Eruv Chatzerot”. (Also, see the 3rd paragraph on pg 1375 for why he uses a bungalow colony as an example, rather than a city.) (Perhaps you are referring to the concept of “sechirat reshut”, which is a detail that this conversation has glossed over thus far?) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/46 "2007-05-22T15:01:08Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] I do thank **Scuba\_Ben** for posting a link to the article way back above in post #3, but I would like to know how he and others saw it. There’s no link to it on the [Straight Dope homepage](http://www.straightdope.com), or at least, not on the version of the homepage that I see. [/QUOTE] I searched the archive. Fortunately, the site admin had already archived the article. ---
**Author:** ![mymo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8dc957/32.png) [@mymo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mymo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/47 "2007-05-22T15:19:41Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Hooray, my first guest contribution is finally published!! **Chaim** , the question at hand wanted specifically to understand _work_ on Sabbath - to understand how something as minor as flipping an electrical switch can be work, and how a bunch of strings on poles can permit someone to do something that is otherwise forbidden. Obviously, there are other aspects to Sabbath celebration, including the feasts and zemiros, but an exploration of all aspects of Sabbath would have been way beyond the limits of the Staff Report format, and/or the interests of its audience. . [/QUOTE] Just thought I would comment here. I am a lurker here but I post every once in a while. the issue really is to understand that melacha is not work. it is creation (except for one of them) According to the torah it is enterly possible to go to work on shabbat. You just would have a non-jew handle the money and you would write with your left hand. “work” is just a translation. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/48 "2007-05-22T15:45:25Z")
[QUOTE=mymo] the issue really is to understand that melacha is not work. it is creation (except for one of them) According to the torah it is enterly possible to go to work on shabbat. You just would have a non-jew handle the money and you would write with your left hand. “work” is just a translation. [/QUOTE] _Melacha_ might be better translated as “labor.” And nope, no writing or conducting business on Shabbat, it’s a day to enjoy the delight of taking a rest from making a living. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/49 "2007-05-22T16:08:49Z")
Just another accolade on an excellent article. I like the detail and the overall tone. Well Done, **cmkeller**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/50 "2007-05-22T16:17:35Z")
I’m beginning to wonder about the Karaite position now. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/51 "2007-05-22T16:20:56Z")
[QUOTE=ddanjou] The judge (I cannot remember his name, just that I liked him a lot) pointed out that church bells ring all the time in Montreal (the City where if you throw a stone you break a stained glass window), imposing other religion just as much… He then asked what activity the citizen felt the eruv was preventing her from participating in. The only activity the woman could come up with was… flying a kite. [/QUOTE] The judge must have been hard-pressed to refrain from telling her to go give it a try. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/52 "2007-05-22T17:17:12Z")
[QUOTE=Scuba\_Ben] **Melacha** might be better translated as “labor.” [/QUOTE] “_M’lakha_” and “_Mal’akh_” (Angel, emissary) are the only two words in Biblical Hebrew that are derived from the root “_LAKh_” (There’s also “_M’lakhuti_” – Man-made, artificial, contrived – in Modern Hebrew, but the word was based on the word M’lakha so I’m ignoring it). This same root is more common in Arabic and also means, I believe, something like “mission” or “emissary.” So I think a better translation of “_M’lakha_” is “Mission (of the Lord)” – as was explained already, stuff that was done in order to create the vessel for the serving of God, not necessarily “work” or “labor” in the physical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/53 "2007-05-22T17:26:21Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] First, congrats to **CMKeller** on his first staff report… we hope for more! [/QUOTE] Indeed. _L’chaim!_ > [@](#): > > **DrDeth** , the short answer is that role of “sabbath goy” is controversial and complicated. In way back times (prior to electric timers), it was permitted to hire a non-Jew before the sabbath to help with some specific work that needed to be done on sabbath. For instance, to turn on the lights or heat in the synagogue. The rules for sabbath only apply to Jews, and so that was a “way around” the strict rules. There are limits on what the non-Jew can do for the observant Jew – like running a business – and that’s where we get into lots of complications. This “loophole” also reminds me of another that I became aware of while reading through the manual for my parents’ new stove, and which I’ve yet to see addressed here: Newer ovens have “sabbath” settings, so that (a) the indicators don’t light up and (b) there is a random delay in implementation of anything. That is: you press the “on” button and it waits a random (unknown to you) amount of time between 10 seconds and a minute before actually turning on. This I’ve never understood because it seems clear to me that agency is still apparent in the oven turning on. Besides, there’s still electricity and circuits closing when you press the button even if you don’t hear a [strike]boop[/strike]beep and see a light. What gives? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/54 "2007-05-22T18:14:45Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] Newer ovens have “sabbath” settings, [/QUOTE] The “Sabbath” mode is really a misnomer. It really does very little to help with the Sabbath laws. It really help on the Jewish holidays, when a lot of these laws are a bit more lenient, in ways that are way too technical to go into here. Suffice it to say that there are no lights, numbers, or sounds, which happen as an immediate reaction to pressing the buttons. One thing that it does solve Sabbath-wise is to override the 12-hour automatic shutoff that many new ovens have. Thus, you can turn the oven on Friday afternoon, and it won’t go off while you’re asleep Saturday morning. The heat will stay on, keeping your lunch hot. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/55 "2007-05-22T18:16:50Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] I’m beginning to wonder about the Karaite position now. [/QUOTE] It’s making more sense or less sense? Feel free to ask on this thread, or start another, and the Teeming Millions will help to fight ignorance! ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/56 "2007-05-22T18:21:04Z")
[QUOTE=Scuba\_Ben] _Melacha_ might be better translated as “labor.” [/QUOTE] I’ve always felt that it is important to remember that we are dealing with a very technical, legalistic term. Translate it however you like, but keep in mind that one cannot extrapolate from how one understands the translation (or even how one understands the original word, if one is fluent in Hebrew) to what is allowed and what is not. Ask a physicist, a quarterback, a chef, and a student what “work” is, and you’ll get answers that are all very correct, and all very different. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/57 "2007-05-22T18:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] Ask a physicist, a quarterback, a chef, and a student what “work” is, and you’ll get answers that are all very correct, and all very different. [/QUOTE] Ask two rabbis what “_melacha_” is, and you’ll get at least three different answers. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/58 "2007-05-22T18:38:57Z")
I just wanted to say thanks for this staff report. It explained a lot. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/59 "2007-05-22T19:38:10Z")
I meant I wondered what the Karaite position is. And it occurs to me that I should explain (I’m not Jewish, just a well-informed gentile, which occasionally misleads me into thinking that if _I_ know something about Judaism, everybody else must know it, too) that the Karaites are a very small Jewish sect that rejects the Talmud and the entire superstructure created by the rabbis, and insists on applying scripture only. But, while I know that much, I know virtually nothing of their actual beliefs and practices. ---
**Author:** ![Barrettm95](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Barrettm95](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrettm95)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572/60 "2007-05-22T20:10:43Z")
Thanks for clearing up the food issue. I wonder if somehow the tv or any other device were left on accidently or turned on accidently would it be ok to turn it back off? or do you have to tolerate it until Sunday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jewish-sabbath/404572.md?page=4)