# (Orthodox) Jews & the Police **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 26, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304 "2019-10-26T03:59:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/1 "2019-10-26T03:59:53Z")
I hang out on some news sites that cater to Orthodox Jews in the New York City area. It is very interesting and I am always learning new things. Their community is much like any other with little heroes of petty crooks. Some news stories about Jewish criminals provoke comments saying a Jew may not go to the police to report another Jew. Other, more serious, cases provoke cries for the Proper Authorities to lock the guy up and melt the key. **Is there some religious proscription against a Jew cooperating with the secular authorities against another Jew?** I tried to Google it, but you can imagine the rabbit hole that led down. ---
**Author:** ![szabrocki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@szabrocki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/szabrocki)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/2 "2019-10-26T05:38:08Z")
It is not just them. “Birds of a feather, fock together.” The do not mind if one gets picked off at the fringe/edge of the flock, but will protect the center by their numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/3 "2019-10-26T05:41:53Z")
You just _had_ to go and ask a question about Orthodox Judaism on a Friday night, didn’t you? 😛 IANAJ, but in the case of the most fervent Orthodox, my guess is that they wouldn’t trust a non-Jewish authority to treat a Jewish criminal in the rabbinically-prescribed manner. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/4 "2019-10-26T05:59:28Z")
Just by the way, here is a link to the site. I enjoy it quite a bit. [-=Linky=-](https://vosizneias.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/5 "2019-10-26T06:34:46Z")
Chinese criminals in America usually victimize other Chinese, who don’t snitch to the cops. Ditto Salvadoreans, Albanians, Russians and LGBT’s. Insular groups don’t share their private business with outsiders, especially the police. If I had a beef with a fellow expat here in Korea, unless vast sums of money were involved, I can’t imagine how I’d want to involve the Korean police. And that went double when I lived in China. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/6 "2019-10-26T07:06:57Z")
Part of the Ultra-Orthodox mentality is that they’re still living in 17th Century Poland, outside evidence be damned. So of course they don’t trust the Cossacks - I mean, the police. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/7 "2019-10-26T17:30:15Z")
One of the gajillion TV shows speculating the identity of Jack The Ripper said that the police strongly suspected Aaron Kosminski [Aaron Kosminski - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Kosminski) and had another person in the neighborhood tentatively corroborate, but said person refused to give formal evidence or testify in court, because of the possible backlash, and again, testifying against another Jewish person, at the time, would essentially be a death sentence, in prisons of that time. Ok, so that’s an anecdote, really. Now, for centuries prior, the whole point was, that Christian clergy couldn’t be held or tried in Secular courts – there existed Ecclesiastical courts, and those courts had the authority over clergy – sort of an early rule against double jeopardy. Anyway, notice, in this case, its not just a prohibition, there was actually a separate court. And I’d never heard of a separate Orthodox Jewish court that fought for the authority to try Jews outside of local systems. But they would need to establish such a thing before climin the official exemption. Reminds me of an old **Hogan’s Heros** episode, where Hogan wants Col. Klink’s permission to punish Newkirk to cover some random scheme: Hogan: Here you go Col. Klink, sign here… Klink: Wait a minute, this says you’re going to **shoot** him. H: So? K: No, no, no. You can’t shoot another prisoner, I mean **we** could, but you can’t. H: Aw c’mon, we wouldn’t stop you if you wanted to shoot each other. K: **HOGAN** ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/8 "2019-10-26T17:33:28Z")
Here’s a wiki link to the Jewish laws in question,including ancient and modern cases. > **[Mesirah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesirah)** > > Mesirah (or mesira, Hebrew: to turn over) is the action in which one Jew reports the conduct of another Jew to a non-rabbinic authority in a manner and under the circumstances forbidden by rabbinic law. > This may not necessarily apply to reporting legitimate crimes to responsible authority, but does apply to turning over a Jew to an abusive authority, or to a legitimate one who would punish the criminal in ways seen as excessive by Jewish community, though "excessive" punishment by non-Jews ma... As **Alessan** said so cynically in the post above–it all depends on the mentality of the sect. This is true, I think,not just for Jewish sects… As in the examples in in post #5 about the Chinese and Koreans…insular minorities often don’t trust the “establishment”, from which they choose to separate themselves. The Amish in America also prefer to keep their criminal matters internal within the community and not involve the police. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/9 "2019-10-26T18:02:23Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > This is true, I think,not just for Jewish sects… > As in the examples in in post #5 about the Chinese and Koreans…insular minorities often don’t trust the “establishment”, from which they choose to separate themselves. The Amish in America also prefer to keep their criminal matters internal within the community and not involve the police. Yes, this can happen within any insular group. And the opposite occurs as well when the police are all members of an insular group and non-members do not trust them. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/10 "2019-10-26T19:33:27Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes, this can happen within any insular group. And the opposite occurs as well when the police are all members of an insular group and non-members do not trust them. “Affinity Fraud” [Affinity fraud - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_fraud) is a related issue - insular groups will tend to trust other members of that group, leading to victimization. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/11 "2019-10-27T01:38:40Z")
Thanks to **chappachula,** that is what I was looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/12 "2019-10-27T13:52:09Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > One of the gajillion TV shows speculating the identity of Jack The Ripper said that the police strongly suspected Aaron Kosminski [Aaron Kosminski - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Kosminski) and had another person in the neighborhood tentatively corroborate, but said person refused to give formal evidence or testify in court, because of the possible backlash, and again, testifying against another Jewish person, at the time, would essentially be a death sentence, in prisons of that time. Ok, so that’s an anecdote, really. Said person would have been murdered by the Jewish community? This sound highly unlikely. Cite?? ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/13 "2019-10-27T14:32:42Z")
> [@Bert\_Nobbins](#): > > Said person would have been murdered by the Jewish community? This sound highly unlikely. Cite?? The talking heads on that Jack The Ripper special said that the Jewish person wouldn’t formally accuse another Jewish person in British courts, because incarceration, for a Jew, in British prison, at that time, was akin to a death sentence. You know, as a minority, in prison, “accidents” happen. Although probably, the Jewish person giving evidence against another would have faced repercussion from the Jewish community, along the lines of, “snitches get stitches.” ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/14 "2019-10-28T13:11:04Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > The talking heads on that Jack The Ripper special said that the Jewish person wouldn’t formally accuse another Jewish person in British courts, because incarceration, for a Jew, in British prison, at that time, was akin to a death sentence. " I have read a lot of legal history and I have never come across any suggestion of Jews being murdered in prison. (any more than anyone else) If you can’t provide a cite of any sort I think we must conclude you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/15 "2019-10-28T22:08:08Z")
As far as actual religious rules on the subject, isn’t one of the most fundamental commandments to live in a society with laws and courts? One could interpret to mean that a Jew (or, in fact, anyone) who refused to cooperate with the agents of the law was in violation of the religious rules. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/16 "2019-10-29T01:32:45Z")
There is a broad mistrust of the American criminal justice system at the moment. Anyone would have to do something awfully dang bad for me to turn them over to the police. I can think of only two people I would do that to if I had the proof. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/17 "2019-10-29T04:54:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As far as actual religious rules on the subject, isn’t one of the most fundamental commandments to live in a society with laws and courts? One could interpret to mean that a Jew (or, in fact, anyone) who refused to cooperate with the agents of the law was in violation of the religious rules. Only when the society is aligned with the religion. Hence, sharia. Actually, it’s fairly standard that tribal groups (including religiously defined tribal groups) recognize the “laws and courts” of the tribal group, not of some larger society. (The USA is basically Presbyterian in structure, so Presbyterians are generally comfortable with American laws and courts as defined by congress and the constitution. Anglicans are comfortable with a ‘National’ definition, and RC agree with law and the courts because the Pope and the Priest tell them to 🙂 ) The USA recognizes international law only when it wants to, or really has to. Religious rules aren’t that different. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/18 "2019-10-29T05:07:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As far as actual religious rules on the subject, isn’t one of the most fundamental commandments to live in a society with laws and courts? One could interpret to mean that a Jew (or, in fact, anyone) who refused to cooperate with the agents of the law was in violation of the religious rules. You would be amazed at the disdain that some religious people have for “man-made law.” This is a bit on the New Age side of things, instead of traditional religion, but it’s a reasonably good example. > **[The Difference Between Natural Law And Man Made Law | Annie Horkan](https://anniehorkan.com/difference-natural-law-man-made-law/)** > > Mankind must begin to discern the difference between natural law and man made law if we are going to restore and preserve our divine evolutionary path. And that doesn’t even begin to get into the religious/philosophical issue of how a person should react when society’s laws directly contradict religious dictates. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/19 "2019-10-29T06:14:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As far as actual religious rules on the subject, isn’t one of the most fundamental commandments to live in a society with laws and courts? One could interpret to mean that a Jew (or, in fact, anyone) who refused to cooperate with the agents of the law was in violation of the religious rules. You mean laws like “wear a yellow star” and “live in a ghetto?” I agree that laws should be followed in a modern liberal democracy, but in different times and different places, laws and courts were just another means of oppression and discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304/20 "2019-10-29T06:33:18Z")
> [@Bert\_Nobbins](#): > > I have read a lot of legal history and I have never come across any suggestion of Jews being murdered in prison. (any more than anyone else) > > If you can’t provide a cite of any sort I think we must conclude you are wrong. Its true that Aaron Kosminski was the police’s main suspect as to the Ripper. Later notes, diaries and memoirs of multiple senior police officials indicate that they were pretty confident that it was him. At least one or two said that he had been identified by an eyewitness but said eyewitness refused to testify againts him since he was a fellow Jew. You are right there is no suggestion that such reluctance was was due to a higher risk of being a convicted Jew murdered in prison (Kominski would have either hung or been sent to a secure mental hospital so he won’t have gone there anyway) as opposed to a simple reluctance to implicate a fellow Jewish person. Although the authorties could have visited significant pressure to compel testimony if the wished. In any event, the East End of the time was a hotbed of ethnic and sectarian tensions and a Jew being confirmed as the killer would exacerbate the. The British police of that era at home and in the Empire would not think twice to not prosecute such a series of murders if they thought that by doing so they would stoke unrest. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-the-police/842304.md?page=2)