# Orthodox Shitheads Defy Law In Order To Endanger Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606 "2012-09-04T02:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/1 "2012-09-04T02:35:18Z")
[Just gotta kiss them baby dicks, I suppose](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/09/03/rabbis-will-defy-law-on-circumcision-ritual/): > [@](#): > > Ultra-Orthodox rabbis in New York City say if a proposed law requiring parental consent for a circumcision ritual linked to two infant deaths is enacted they will defy it. > > During the ritual, called metzitzah b’peh, a mohel removes the foreskin and uses his mouth to stop the bleeding. At least 11 New York infants are thought to have contracted herpes from the practice, two of whom died and two of whom have irreversible brain damage, according to the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. I really have nothing to say to that. The law doesn’t ban the penis-to-mouth contact, it just requires that the mohels warn the parents that their child might die or become brain damaged by it. _And the mohels won’t do it._ According to Rabbi David Niederman, executive director of the United Jewish Organization of Williamsburg: > [@](#): > > “If, God forbid, there was a danger, we would be the first to stop the practice.” Then why are the children dead, you dishonest sack of shit? And the mohels _are_ apparently lying: > [@](#): > > The Department of Health argues parents should be informed of the risks before making a decision. Since 2004, it has received “multiple complaints from parents who were not aware that direct oral suction was going to be performed as part of their sons’ circumcisions,” But no. Mohels know best and treat adults like children, gravely endangering the actual children in the process. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/2 "2012-09-04T03:41:51Z")
If I hadn’t read this on a couple different sites I’d think it was an onion story. Freedom of religion doesn’t including what appears to be literally sucking baby penises. I assume if this was some backwards cult doing it - the people would be arrested immediately - the fact that they are part of a religion that has been around for eons should make no difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/3 "2012-09-04T12:53:49Z")
I object to the OP’s presentment of the issue. There is absolutely a valid argument to be made for the law, and indeed for banning the practice. But no one – so far as I’m aware — seriously contends the opposition arises because of a need on the part of mohels to “keep sucking baby dicks,” a phrasing that darkly hints at motives starkly different from those that actually motivate the mohels in question. You may rage at their adherence to superstition over medical science if you wish; you pollute the discussion by salacious phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/4 "2012-09-04T13:06:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I object to the OP’s presentment of the issue. > > There is absolutely a valid argument to be made for the law, and indeed for banning the practice. But no one – so far as I’m aware — seriously contends the opposition arises because of a need on the part of mohels to “keep sucking baby dicks,” a phrasing that darkly hints at motives starkly different from those that actually motivate the mohels in question. You may rage at their adherence to superstition over medical science if you wish; you pollute the discussion by salacious phrasing. That’s right-you can’t call them “dick suckers” if they only suck on one side of the dick. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/5 "2012-09-04T13:11:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I object to the OP’s presentment of the issue. > > There is absolutely a valid argument to be made for the law, and indeed for banning the practice. But no one – so far as I’m aware — seriously contends the opposition arises because of a need on the part of mohels to “keep sucking baby dicks,” a phrasing that darkly hints at motives starkly different from those that actually motivate the mohels in question. You may rage at their adherence to superstition over medical science if you wish; you pollute the discussion by salacious phrasing. The phrasing is accurate, he didn’t say fellate. They are literally sucking baby dicks. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/6 "2012-09-04T13:44:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I object to the OP’s presentment of the issue. > > There is absolutely a valid argument to be made for the law, and indeed for banning the practice. But no one – so far as I’m aware — seriously contends the opposition arises because of a need on the part of mohels to “keep sucking baby dicks,” a phrasing that darkly hints at motives starkly different from those that actually motivate the mohels in question. You may rage at their adherence to superstition over medical science if you wish; you pollute the discussion by salacious phrasing. If we’re gonna get all lawyery about it, his subject line is also misleading. The Orthodox shitheads in question are not defying the law _in order to_ endanger children, necessarily; they’re defying the law because they’re Orthodox shitheads who refuse to acknowledge that there’s any risk in the practice. The child endangerment is an unfortunate side effect of their obstinate Orthodox shitheadery. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/7 "2012-09-04T13:52:25Z")
Ultra Orthodox Judaism continues to be as repellant as ever. This is just one of about five hundred disgusting practices they should drop but won’t. They don’t care anything much beyond breeding too many children, treating women like dirt and [pilpul](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilpul). I am glad I live here in America where they have very little influence instead of in Israel where they do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/8 "2012-09-04T14:07:37Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > If we’re gonna get all lawyery about it, his subject line is also misleading. The Orthodox shitheads in question are not defying the law _in order to_ endanger children, necessarily; they’re defying the law because they’re Orthodox shitheads who refuse to acknowledge that there’s any risk in the practice. The child endangerment is an unfortunate side effect of their obstinate Orthodox shitheadery. And this is a key statement too. There is a principle of halakhic law known as _pikuach nefesh_ - “for the sake of the soul.” It means that virtually any other Jewish law may be ignored or broken if a human life is at risk. I assume (without detailed research) that the position of the Orthodox here, then, is that there is no real danger to life. In other words, I assume they reject the factual basis of the claim. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/9 "2012-09-04T14:22:23Z")
Great, so they’re not evil, just really stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Suil\_Dubh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Suil\_Dubh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suil_Dubh)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/10 "2012-09-04T14:44:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You may rage at their adherence to superstition over medical science if you wish; you pollute the discussion by salacious phrasing. Exactly. This is hardly the time or place to be… _dons helmet_ …making mountains out of mohels. _runs away_ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/11 "2012-09-04T14:47:21Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Great, so they’re not evil, just really stupid. Or possibly they are skeptical, in the sense that they question the conclusions being drawn from the evidence. [Here is the PDF](http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/std/bris-statement.pdf) from New York City’s health authorities. > [@](#): > > Since 2004, the Department has investigated and documented a number of cases of herpes simplex virus type-1 (HSV-1) infection in male infants following ritual circumcision with direct oral suctioning. While HSV-1 in adults can cause the common cold sore, HSV-1 infection in newborns is very serious. Most of the children reported were hospitalized, some developed brain damage, and two died. > > Most adults are infected with HSV-1 and have HSV-1 in their mouths and saliva from time to time but do not have any symptoms. HSV-1 infection can spread when infected saliva touches a mucous membrane or a cut or break in the skin. With direct oral suctioning, the mohel places his mouth and lips directly on the infant’s circumcision wound to draw blood away from the cut. A mohel can have HSV-1 infection without knowing it and may transmit HSV-1 to the baby even if the mohel has no symptoms. The statement does not anywhere claim that the transmission of HSV-1 was a result of the direct oral suctioning. It says a number of cases followed such rituals. And it says the mohel may transmit the disease, not that he will, and doesn’t offer up any sense of how likely such transmission is. If it were me, I’d at least be interested in hearing answers to those questions. Obviously I don’t share a belief that the _metzitzah b’peh_ is a religious obligation, or indeed that any _metzitzah_ is a religious obligation. I don’t even think the _brit milah_ is required, come to that. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/12 "2012-09-04T15:04:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or possibly they are skeptical, in the sense that they question the conclusions being drawn from the evidence. > > [Here is the PDF](http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/std/bris-statement.pdf) from New York City’s health authorities. > > The statement does not anywhere claim that the transmission of HSV-1 was a result of the direct oral suctioning. It says a number of cases followed such rituals. And it says the mohel may transmit the disease, not that he will, and doesn’t offer up any sense of how likely such transmission is. > > If it were me, I’d at least be interested in hearing answers to those questions. Obviously I don’t share a belief that the _metzitzah b’peh_ is a religious obligation, or indeed that any _metzitzah_ is a religious obligation. I don’t even think the _brit milah_ is required, come to that. Normal, responsible, mature, adult human beings would err on the side of caution and abandon this practice just in case. But the ultra orthodox are, as the OP states, shitheads so they don’t care about anything other than following meaningless rituals. If there’s even a possibility this could happen they should stop. The fact that they won’t is disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/13 "2012-09-04T15:04:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The statement does not anywhere claim that the transmission of HSV-1 was a result of the direct oral suctioning. It says a number of cases followed such rituals. How can we be sure that those babies didn’t catch herpes from one of their other sex partners? ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/14 "2012-09-04T15:07:45Z")
I doubt there are any studies showing how likely this is - but … > [@](#): > > About 70 percent of all adults in the U.S. are infected with HSV-1 and may shed virus in their saliva at any time during their lifetime, even if they don’t have symptoms like sores in the mouth or cold sores. [http://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/herpes/newborns/fact\_sheet.htm](http://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/herpes/newborns/fact_sheet.htm) So there is ~ 70% chance any given mohel has HSV-1 - seems like putting your mouth on the open wound a penis is Not a good idea. The baby is going to get HSV anyway, but the problem appears to be - getting it as a baby - is very dangerous. Also see: > **[How 11 New York City Babies Contracted Herpes Through Circumcision | TIME.com](https://healthland.time.com/2012/06/07/how-11-new-york-city-babies-contracted-herpes-through-circumcision/)** > > An ultra-Orthodox Jewish circumcision ritual is found to cause neonatal herpes infections in newborns in New York City, prompting health officials to encourage parents to consider the health risks of the practice. > [@](#): > > In all three cases, the babies developed lesions or vesicles in their genital areas about 8 to 10 days after their ritual circumcision; the timing and location of the babies’ symptoms suggest that the infections were introduced during circumcision, the CDC reports. The health officials’ investigation further uncovered eight other similar cases through Dec. 2011 in New York City, bringing the total to 11. Edited to add… Apparently there are some estimates - didn’t read to the end of my own cite… > [@](#): > > Based on the overall incidence of neonatal HSV infections, total birth statistics and estimates of boys being circumcised with direct oral-genital suction (about 3,564 a year in New York City), health officials estimate that the risk of HSV infection in baby boys after metzitzah b’peh is 3.4 times greater than in boys who aren’t exposed to oral suction. Overall, the risk of herpes infection followingmetzitzah b’peh was 24.4 per 100,000 baby boys between April 2006 and Dec. 2011, the CDC estimates. > > Read more: [How 11 New York City Babies Contracted Herpes Through Circumcision | TIME.com](http://healthland.time.com/2012/06/07/how-11-new-york-city-babies-contracted-herpes-through-circumcision/#ixzz25Vvmt7or) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/15 "2012-09-04T15:12:38Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Normal, responsible, mature, adult human beings would err on the side of caution and abandon this practice just in case. But the ultra orthodox are, as the OP states, shitheads so they don’t care about anything other than following meaningless rituals. > > If there’s even a possibility this could happen they should stop. The fact that they won’t is disgusting. If there’s a one in one hundred million possibility they should stop? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/16 "2012-09-04T15:16:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If there’s a one in one hundred million possibility they should stop? Of course! Rational Jewish law is supposed to be about lives not about blinding the following the laws. Groups like the Haredim don’t. It’s one of many reasons they suck. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/17 "2012-09-04T15:19:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If there’s a one in one hundred million possibility they should stop? Apparently the govt is only trying to get them to give a written warning to parents of the danger. It appears that some of these parents aren’t aware that oral suction is going to happen. I can’t imagine many agreeing to this, but the only real reason to keep this secret is that most people are going to find it disgusting. Personally - I don’t think even if there is 0 chances in a million that someone should be sucking baby penises. I don’t care if their religion has done it for 5,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/18 "2012-09-04T15:22:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or possibly they are skeptical, in the sense that they question the conclusions being drawn from the evidence. No, they reject them because the information was produced by a non-Haredi. Trust me - I know these assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/19 "2012-09-04T15:25:24Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > How can we be sure that those babies didn’t catch herpes from one of their other sex partners? Hardee har har. How droll. In “Transmission of herpes-simplex virus type 1 in a nursery for the newborn. Identification of viral isolates by D.N.A. ‘fingerprinting’,” authors Linnemann CC Jr, Buchman TG, Light IJ, Ballard JL provide this abstract: > [@](#): > > The occurrence of herpes-simplex-virus type-1 infections in two newborn infants in a nursery within a one-month period suggested the possibility of transmission in the nursery. One infant may have been infected by his father, who had active herpes labialis at the time of the child’s birth. The source of the second infant’s infection was not apparent. Viruses isolated from the two infants were “fingerprinted” by cleaving the virus-specific D.N.A. with several restriction endonucleases and comparing the electrophoretic patterns. Isolates from the two infants were identical and differed from other isolates from epidemiologically unrelated cases. This observation confirmed the possibility of transmission of herpes-simplex virus type 1 in the nursery, but did not define the mode of transmission. Type-1 infections are serious in neonates: one of the infants died and an oesophageal stricture developed in the other. The “fingerprinting” technique provides a useful epidemiological technique for tracing the transmission of herpes virus infections. Lancet. 1978 May 6;1(8071):964-6. The Lancet article does not reveal either infectious mohels or promiscuous infants. Is it possible that there are other vectors of transmission? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/20 "2012-09-04T15:28:35Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Of course! Rational Jewish law is supposed to be about lives not about blinding the following the laws. Groups like the Haredim don’t. It’s one of many reasons they suck. Is there a group that insists on proper grammar, and would you be interested in their newsletter? Seriously, unless you reject the entire concept of halakic law, there’s a point at which the dangers are so slight it does not make sense to follow it. It’s not “rational Jewish law” to accord a one-in-a-hundred-million chance as being something that dictates practice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606.md?page=2)