# Orthodox Shitheads Defy Law In Order To Endanger Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606 "2012-09-04T02:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/221 "2012-09-06T13:04:20Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I never thought I’d see a thread where **Bricker** is the one arguing _against_ the use of technical accuracy. I’m a big fan of technical accuracy because, as a general proposition, technical accuracy is correlated with actual accuracy – that is, the more precisely defined the terms of a discussion are, the more clear and precise the exchange of ideas. So I’m not generally seeking technical accuracy for its own end, but rather to ensure that the discussion is clear and focused. In this case, though, that goal is thwarted. Under the guise of technical accuracy, the words used insinuate salacious and perverse acts. But as it happens, _further_ technical accuracy would save the day. I wouldn’t object to “apply brief oral suction to the circumcision wound.” That’s a far MORE technically accurate description than “sucking baby dick.” True? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/222 "2012-09-06T13:31:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But as it happens, _further_ technical accuracy would save the day. I wouldn’t object to “apply brief oral suction to the circumcision wound.” That’s a far MORE technically accurate description than “sucking baby dick.” > > True? The temporary (and culturally-approved and religiously-mandated) application of wrinkled lip to wrinkled and recently-circumcised infant schlong coinciding with the creation of an oral vacuum, or TCARMAWLWRCISC for short, is the appropriate phrase, if we’re really going to get _technical_. But in the interest of brevity I will happily accept “sucking baby dick.” The thread is supposed to be about TCARMAWLWRCISC but you’ve transformed it into an argument over whether discussion regarding TCARMAWLWRCISC is best-served by describing those tender and innocent cock kisses as “the sucking of baby dick.” You are a foreskin-cleaving knight of the Order of the Bris, defending the names of those poor souls whose only crime is making it to third base with infants. I hope next to see you in a thread about rape demanding that people say “he practiced the vaginal insertion of his blood-engorged phallus with a non-consenting party” rather than “the bastard fucking raped her.” You are a champion of the light and I wish you Godspeed. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/223 "2012-09-06T13:57:26Z")
Cutting and sucking baby boy cock are more honestly descriptive than " metzitzah b’peh." No one knows what that is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/224 "2012-09-06T14:04:42Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Cutting and sucking baby boy cock are more honestly descriptive than " metzitzah b’peh." > > No one knows what that is. Everyone knows what circumcision is. Defend using the phrase “cutting baby cock” instead of “circumcision.” ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/225 "2012-09-06T14:06:15Z")
Circumcision is emotionally bland and neutral. You know that. What do we call girl circumcision? ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/226 "2012-09-06T14:32:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here is my first post in this thread, with precisely the same goalposts: No, it’s not. Your first post in the thread references descriptions of dick sucking. Every single post of yours that I’ve replied to has been about those references. Suddenly, you’re talking about kissing. Now, I may not have been on this Earth for as many years as you have, but my time here has indicated that there is a difference between kissing and dick sucking. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/227 "2012-09-06T14:39:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Everyone knows what circumcision is. Defend using the phrase “cutting baby cock” instead of “circumcision.” It reminds people that cutting baby cock is mutilation, and results in pain and bleeding, as compared to ‘circumcision,’ which is emotionally distant and calculatedly bland, like ‘collateral damage,’ ‘enhanced interrogation technique,’ and other double-speak. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/228 "2012-09-06T14:50:19Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Circumcision is emotionally bland and neutral. You know that. > > What do we call girl circumcision? I imagine you’re referring to “female genital mutilation.” Here again we suffer from imprecision if you’re seeking to use this as an analogy. Male circumcision involves the removal of the foreskin of the penis. The World Health Organization classifies a number of different operations as “female genital mutiliation:” [ol] [li]clitoridectomy[/li][li]clitoridectomy and removal of the inner labia[/li][li]infibulation, which is a clitoridectomy, removal of all or part of both the inner and outer labia, and a stitching closed of the wounds leaving a small opening [/li][/ol] These are a wide range of procedures, and not really comparable to circumcision, except in the base sense that both involve a cutting and the genitals. Are they? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/229 "2012-09-06T14:51:47Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It reminds people that cutting baby cock is mutilation, and results in pain and bleeding, as compared to ‘circumcision,’ which is emotionally distant and calculatedly bland, like ‘collateral damage,’ ‘enhanced interrogation technique,’ and other double-speak. But this objection is not limited to the “ultra Orthodox” rabbis – it applies to every Jewish circumcision, every Muslim circumcision, and every Gentile circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/230 "2012-09-06T14:58:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I imagine you’re referring to “female genital mutilation.” > > Here again we suffer from imprecision if you’re seeking to use this as an analogy. Male circumcision involves the removal of the foreskin of the penis. The World Health Organization classifies a number of different operations as “female genital mutiliation:” > > [ol] > [li]clitoridectomy[/li][li]clitoridectomy and removal of the inner labia[/li][li]infibulation, which is a clitoridectomy, removal of all or part of both the inner and outer labia, and a stitching closed of the wounds leaving a small opening [/li][/ol] > > These are a wide range of procedures, and not really comparable to circumcision, except in the base sense that both involve a cutting and the genitals. Are they? Nothing imprecise here. There are valid medical reasons for all those procedures. Medical terms are appropriate. We aren’t discussing medical procedures. We’re talking about faith-based religious ritual with zero medical benefit. Preventative circumcision doesn’t exist. It’s not medical. Thankfully, we’ve almost dis-entwined religion and superstition from medicine, but we’re not quite there yet. Don’t use an appropriately unemotional medical term for religious cutting and permanent body modification. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/231 "2012-09-06T15:18:19Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Nothing imprecise here. There are valid medical reasons for all those procedures. Medical terms are appropriate. > > We aren’t discussing medical procedures. We’re talking about faith-based religious ritual with zero medical benefit. > > Preventative circumcision doesn’t exist. It’s not medical. > > Thankfully, we’ve almost dis-entwined religion and superstition from medicine, but we’re not quite there yet. > > Don’t use an appropriately unemotional medical term for religious cutting and permanent body modification. [Zero? No.](http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Evidence-of-circumcision-s-benefit-mount-3839687.php#ixzz25henKwSM) > [@](#): > > For parents of newborn boys, circumcision has always been a personal choice, often based on religious or cultural beliefs. But, as the American Academy of Pediatrics said last week, the evidence of a medical benefit in having the procedure done is mounting. The procedure aids in the prevention of urinary tract infections, penile cancer and transmission of several sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. It also reduces the risk of men passing the virus that causes cervical cancer to female sexual partners, the academy said. However, the academy said, the medical benefits are not great enough to recommend routine circumcision for all baby boys and suggests parents educate themselves and discuss the issue with their pediatrician. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/232 "2012-09-06T15:38:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Everyone knows what circumcision is. Defend using the phrase “cutting baby cock” instead of “circumcision.” That’s what it _is_. If I want to defend circumcision (and I do), then that is exactly what I have to defend. I do defend cutting baby cock. I was there when the mohel cut my son’s. And if I have another son, I would do it again. But people do find circumcision distasteful and outrageous, and it’s place in our society is highly contested. I defend the practice on its own merits and demerits regardless of how it is framed. The same is true here. If this practice cannot be defended without sanitizing it, abstracting away from the graphic act itself, or characterizing it as some sort of banal religious ritual, then perhaps it is indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/233 "2012-09-06T15:48:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Zero? No.](http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Evidence-of-circumcision-s-benefit-mount-3839687.php#ixzz25henKwSM) Oh, please. That’s so political it’s nauseating. Show me where in the Bible, Torah, Koran etc. where God Moses Jesus Mohammed Abraham or anyone else important and all-wise said “cut up thy boys’ penises, for in two or three thousand years there wilt be something called “HIV” which willeth affect a people called “African men” and have nothing to doeth with thee and thine infants.” Girls get more urinary tract infections than boys, cut or uncut. Cutting off boy nipples will spare them the horror of nipple cancer, sure as shit. So? You have zero ethical or moral right to cut up a child’s privates to prevent a theoretical infection in a theoretical person twenty or thirty or fifty years in the future, when those infections probably won’t even be problems anymore. Finally, the academy itself said it doesn’t recommend routine circumcision. It’s right there. Dead. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/234 "2012-09-06T15:51:28Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Oh, please. That’s so political it’s nauseating. > > Show me where in the Bible, Torah, Koran etc. where God Moses Jesus Mohammed Abraham or anyone else important and all-wise said “cut up thy boys’ penises, for in two or three thousand years there wilt be something called “HIV” which willeth affect a people called “African men” and have nothing to doeth with thee and thine infants.” > > Girls get more urinary tract infections than boys, cut or uncut. > > Cutting off boy nipples will spare them the horror of nipple cancer, sure as shit. So? > > You have zero ethical or moral right to cut up a child’s privates to prevent a theoretical infection in a theoretical person twenty or thirty or fifty years in the future, when those infections probably won’t even be problems anymore. > > Finally, the academy itself said it doesn’t recommend routine circumcision. It’s right there. Dead. Yes, it’s true that they don’t recommend routine circumcision. But I offered that evidence to rebut your claim that, “We’re talking about faith-based religious ritual with zero medical benefit.” Do you now agree that “zero” is not true? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/235 "2012-09-06T15:57:17Z")
“Zero” is my opinion. Obviously a .001% reduction in the statistical chance of something happening can be uselessly defined as “more than zero.” I’m not biting that hook, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/236 "2012-09-06T16:09:13Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > “Zero” is my opinion. Obviously a .001% reduction in the statistical chance of something happening can be uselessly defined as “more than zero.” > > I’m not biting that hook, though. That’s true – a 0.001% chance is, I agree, effectively zero. But the [American Academy of Pediatrics](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/e756) study does not agree that the chances are as small as that. They say, contrary to your claims, that the health benefits of the procedure outweigh the risks: > [@](#): > > Evaluation of current evidence indicates that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks; furthermore, the benefits of newborn male circumcision justify access to this procedure for families who choose it. Specific benefits from male circumcision were identified for the prevention of urinary tract infections, acquisition of HIV, transmission of some sexually transmitted infections, and penile cancer. Earlier in this thread, there was vast outcry at the primitive ultra Orthodox for their obstinacy in not following best medical practice. Now, are we going to see the same storm descend upon you for rejecting best medical practice? Ha! Ha! Yeah, hilarious, I know. But seriously, on what basis do you reject this study? > [@](#): > > A recently published study from the > CDC provides good evidence that, in > the United States, male circumcision > before the age of sexual debut would > reduce HIV acquisition among heterosexual males. > 60 > Although individual > sexual practices are difficult to predict in the newborn period, the majority of US males are heterosexual > and could benefit from male circumcision. Mathematical modeling by the > CDC shows that, taking an average > efficacy of 60% from the African trials, > and assuming the protective effect of > circumcision applies only to heterosexually acquired HIV, there would be > a 15.7% reduction in lifetime HIV risk > for all males. 15.7% is a bit more than 0.001%, isn’t it? Five orders of magnitude, in fact, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/237 "2012-09-06T17:05:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But this objection is not limited to the “ultra Orthodox” rabbis – it applies to every Jewish circumcision, every Muslim circumcision, and every Gentile circumcision. So? You asked me to defend using ‘cutting baby cock’ in place of ‘circumcision.’ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/238 "2012-09-06T17:26:58Z")
> [@bup](#): > > So? You asked me to defend using ‘cutting baby cock’ in place of ‘circumcision.’ Yes. And you responded that circumcision was mutilation, and thus worthy of the derogatory characterization. I contend that circumcision is a medical procedure with recognized medical benefits, that the American Academy of Pediatrics has determined that the medical benefits for this procedure outweigh the risks, and thus it’s NOT appropriate to use the derogatory term “cutting baby cock.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/239 "2012-09-06T17:51:14Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > That’s what it _is_. If I want to defend circumcision (and I do), then that is exactly what I have to defend. I do defend cutting baby cock. I was there when the mohel cut my son’s. And if I have another son, I would do it again. > > But people do find circumcision distasteful and outrageous, and it’s place in our society is highly contested. I defend the practice on its own merits and demerits regardless of how it is framed. > > The same is true here. If this practice cannot be defended without sanitizing it, abstracting away from the graphic act itself, or characterizing it as some sort of banal religious ritual, then perhaps it is indefensible. That’s silly. Are we now supposed to call a colonoscopy “an anal ramming with a device” because some folks out there find anything to do with inserting stuff up the ass distasteful, presumably because of its sexual connotations? Everyone knows what a circumcision is. There is no particular reason to adopt the most graphic possible language to describe it, and failure to do so isn’t “sanitizing” anything. It is simply using the proper and generally-accepted term. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/240 "2012-09-06T17:54:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s silly. Are we now supposed to call a colonoscopy “an anal ramming with a device” because some folks out there find anything to do with inserting stuff up the ass distasteful, presumably because of its sexual connotations? Yeah, I remember when my doctor ass-fucked me with a camera-dildo. Good times. Your point is, of course, exactly correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606.md?page=13)