# Orthodox Shitheads Defy Law In Order To Endanger Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606 "2012-09-04T02:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/41 "2012-09-04T17:18:34Z")
In case you’ve missed it, my main objection is not that they’re possibly infecting kids. My main objection is that they’re “utilizing an orally created pressure differential to induce sanguinary fluids to migrate away from an artificially induced penile incision.” The herpes is just the rotting cherry on top. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/42 "2012-09-04T17:21:58Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > It’s not “a pilpul,” oh Rabbi Bricker. It’s just pilpul. And it’s stupid. Stupid religious practices that are potentially dangerous should be abandoned. It’s yet another illustration why many Jews find the Haredim so unappealing. They are all about mindless religious rituals no matter how dumb or sexist or outdated or even potentially dangerous. “Pilpul,” is the method. “A pilpul” is an argument constructed using the method. [Cite:](http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112360/jewish/Rabbi-Jacob-Pollack.htm) > [@](#): > > Pilpul was designed to sharpen the mind by means of question and answer and involved discussion. The Dean used to **deliver a Pilpul** on a certain theme in the Talmud, first going deeply into Rashi and Tosefos, then raising a question, giving an answer, nullifying the answer with a different question, offering a different solution, and so on. (emphasis added) Kinda sad that a nice Catholic boy knows this and you didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/43 "2012-09-04T17:23:16Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > In case you’ve missed it, my main objection is not that they’re possibly infecting kids. My main objection is that they’re “utilizing an orally created pressure differential to induce sanguinary fluids to migrate away from an artificially induced penile incision.” The herpes is just the rotting cherry on top. So why is that objectionable, in this narrow context, apart from the dangers of infection? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/44 "2012-09-04T17:24:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I object to the OP’s presentment of the issue. > > There is absolutely a valid argument to be made for the law, and indeed for banning the practice. But no one – so far as I’m aware — seriously contends the opposition arises because of a need on the part of mohels to “keep sucking baby dicks,” a phrasing that darkly hints at motives starkly different from those that actually motivate the mohels in question. You may rage at their adherence to superstition over medical science if you wish; you pollute the discussion by salacious phrasing. Interesting. You’ve completely managed to sidestep the actual issue\*, which is that regardless of their motives, _these rabbis are planning to defy the law because they disagree with it_. We are not talking about some kind of ecumenical imperative here; the proposed legislation doesn’t ban the practice, it simply requires informed consent. \*though most of the other people posting in the thread have too. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/45 "2012-09-04T17:26:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So why is that objectionable, in this narrow context, apart from the dangers of infection? You know exactly why it’s objectionable. I am not your student, you are not my teacher, this is not some sort of Bricker Explains It All class so you can take your shitty ersatz socratic dialogue and shove it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/46 "2012-09-04T17:33:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You know exactly why it’s objectionable. I am not your student, you are not my teacher, this is not some sort of Bricker Explains It All class so you can take your shitty ersatz socratic dialogue and shove it. No, I don’t. The only thing I can imagine is the precise reason I was chastising you: dark hints of a pedophile impulse being behind the practice. Since you (sort of) disavowed that, I’m left with the conclusion that either you really didn’t disavow that, or you have some other reason but aren’t smart enough to explain it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/47 "2012-09-04T17:36:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Interesting. You’ve completely managed to sidestep the actual issue\*, which is that regardless of their motives, _these rabbis are planning to defy the law because they disagree with it_. We are not talking about some kind of ecumenical imperative here; the proposed legislation doesn’t ban the practice, it simply requires informed consent. > > \*though most of the other people posting in the thread have too. Here was my first post in the thread: > [@Bricker](#): > > I object to the OP’s presentment of the issue. > > There is absolutely a valid argument to be made for the law, and indeed for banning the practice. But no one – so far as I’m aware — seriously contends the opposition arises because of a need on the part of mohels to “keep sucking baby dicks,” a phrasing that darkly hints at motives starkly different from those that actually motivate the mohels in question. You may rage at their adherence to superstition over medical science if you wish; you pollute the discussion by salacious phrasing. It sure seems like I acknowledge your point, but complain about the presentment of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/48 "2012-09-04T17:41:37Z")
Is it really that crazy to be against sucking on babies’ dicks whether or not the sucker gets off on it? “Dude, you just knifed that guy!” “Yeah, but it really doesn’t do anything for me.” “Oh, I apologize, I thought you were one of those sickos who gets a high from killing people.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/49 "2012-09-04T17:42:20Z")
It’s the Pit. The well can’t be poisoned if it’s already littered with f-words. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/50 "2012-09-04T17:43:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Pilpul,” is the method. “A pilpul” is an argument constructed using the method. > > [Cite:](http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112360/jewish/Rabbi-Jacob-Pollack.htm) > > (emphasis added) > > Kinda sad that a nice Catholic boy knows this and you didn’t? We did not use the term with the article in front of it in the Orthodox yeshiva I attended but nice try. Are there simply no mindless idiotic religious practices you won’t defend? It’s amusing you linked to Chabad because they’re sort of like a Jewish version of you: hairsplitting nutters obssessed with stupid laws dreamed up by old men largely to control women a few thousand years ago. The last time they showed up at my door they ignored me completely until Idiot Brother came to speak with their sexist asses. Your Catholicism is as unappealing as their Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/51 "2012-09-04T17:59:54Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > We did not use the term with the article in front of it in the Orthodox yeshiva I attended but nice try. What does “nice try” mean? Are you disputing that the word is used to describe both a specific argument as well as the method? > [@](#): > > Are there simply no mindless idiotic religious practices you won’t defend? It’s amusing you linked to Chabad because they’re sort of like a Jewish version of you: hairsplitting nutters obssessed with stupid laws dreamed up by old men largely to control women a few thousand years ago. The last time they showed up at my door they ignored me completely until Idiot Brother came to speak with their sexist asses. > > Your Catholicism is as unappealing as their Judaism. So your view of the Talmud is "stupid laws dreamed up by old men?’ How about Torah? Does that also describe Torah? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/52 "2012-09-04T18:02:10Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Is it really that crazy to be against sucking on babies’ dicks whether or not the sucker gets off on it? > > “Dude, you just knifed that guy!” > “Yeah, but it really doesn’t do anything for me.” > “Oh, I apologize, I thought you were one of those sickos who gets a high from killing people.” But that’s not what’s being discussed here. What’s being discussed here is a brief suction immediately following the circumcision, not a general policy of oral-genital contact with infants. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/53 "2012-09-04T18:06:29Z")
I only left my knife in his lung for a second. It was a very brief stabbing. It’s not like I have a general policy of knifing people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/54 "2012-09-04T18:14:44Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I only left my knife in his lung for a second. It was a very brief stabbing. It’s not like I have a general policy of knifing people. Sure. Now, I could rebut that with what we call the “IS” approach: You know exactly why it’s different!!!1!! But instead I will explain to you why it’s different. A knife in a lung is harmful at its inception. The damage to the lung happens at the exact instance that the knife penetrates the lung. I suppose that leaving the knife in might cause some additional damage, but the primary ill associated with a knife in the lung happens instantly. It is, thus, correct to complain about a knife in a lung even for a second. In contrast, and again setting aside the disease issue, while there are good reasons to generally forbid oral-genital contact between adults and infants, in this special case none of the harms associated with oral-genital contact exist. So the two cases are not analogous. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/55 "2012-09-04T18:18:54Z")
Well, I guess I appreciate knowing that you condone brief oral-genital contact between an adult and an infant as long as there’s a minimal risk of virus transmission. I would like, however, for you to list the reasons why this contact is forbidden in general and why those reasons do not apply in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/56 "2012-09-04T18:26:08Z")
**Bricker** , you are disgusting me so much in this thread that I have lost the last little shred of respect I have for you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/57 "2012-09-04T18:44:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > **Bricker** , you are disgusting me so much in this thread that I have lost the last little shred of respect I have for you. Oh, no. Not that. Anything but that. Look, why don’t you address and rebut any of the stuff I’m actually saying? On a message board that (ha! ha!) supposed is about fighting ignorance, if I’m saying something that’s incorrect, why don’t you step up and fix it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/58 "2012-09-04T18:53:05Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Well, I guess I appreciate knowing that you condone brief oral-genital contact between an adult and an infant as long as there’s a minimal risk of virus transmission. > > I would like, however, for you to list the reasons why this contact is forbidden in general and why those reasons do not apply in this instance. Sure. In general, we associate oral-genital contact with sexual activity, an obvious reason to prohibit it between adults and infants. And because there is, in general, no other reason to permit such contact, we are safe making a _gezeirah_. This is a word used in Talmudic discussion, ironically, referring to a “fence” around the Torsh – we are safe prohibiting all such contact, in general, because of our desire to forbid contact arising from perverse sexual desire and the knowledge that there’s no good reason to permit it otherwise. However, here, in this instance, there is a reason to permit it: longstanding religious practice. So this would be an exception to the general principle. It’s an act done only briefly, in full view of family and friends, only once in an infant’s life at the time of circumcision, and not for sexual purposes. All of those characteristics distinguish it from the oral-genital contact we seek to prohibit under the general rule. Again, though, note the sly rephrasing you offer: I am, according to you, condoning brief oral-genital contact between an adult and an infant as long as there’s a minimal risk of virus transmission. But of course that doesn’t tell the whole story: I condone brief oral-genital contact between an adult and an infant as long as there’s a minimal risk of virus transmission, it’s done immediately following circumcision, it’s done by the person doing the circumcising, the person performing the act is a trained mohel acting in public and the act is performed for a pious purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/59 "2012-09-04T18:55:28Z")
So to sum up, there’s no good reason to allow such contact. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/60 "2012-09-04T18:59:56Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > So to sum up, there’s no good reason to allow such contact. Must I draw your arguments out of you like extracting teeth? Are you suggesting that long-standing religious practice is insufficient reason to permit anything? It’s insufficient to permit this particular act? Or some other assertion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606.md?page=4)