# Orthodox Shitheads Defy Law In Order To Endanger Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606 "2012-09-04T02:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/61 "2012-09-04T19:05:24Z")
If the only thing something has going for it is longstanding religious practice, then yes, I feel no compunction to condone it. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/62 "2012-09-04T19:07:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Must I draw your arguments out of you like extracting teeth? I guess you must. Or, you could understand that no matter what arguments you put forth, I will never recant my position that an adult should not place the penis of an infant in his or her mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/63 "2012-09-04T19:14:01Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I guess you must. Or, you could understand that no matter what arguments you put forth, I will never recant my position that an adult should not place the penis of an infant in his or her mouth. OK, you’re welcome to that position. It’s not even an unreasonable position. But when applied to the particular religious practice in play here, it’s also not a position universally held. Nor is your position a matter of law. What’s galling to me is not your core position, but your sly and smirky attempts to suggest something more dark and perverse than what’s actually happening here, in just the same way that idiots proclaim “Barack Hussein Obama!” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/64 "2012-09-04T19:16:51Z")
Putting your mouth on an infant’s penis is dark and perverse in and of itself. I never thought I’d see the day where I’d have to actually type that out. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/65 "2012-09-04T19:19:11Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Putting your mouth on an infant’s penis is dark and perverse in and of itself. I never thought I’d see the day where I’d have to actually type that out. So you’re saying you’re against letting Jews practice their religion? How long have you been anti-Semitic? Belong to any organizations that share your disgust with Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/66 "2012-09-04T19:20:23Z")
Did everyone miss the point in the linked article where _many, if not most, rabbis don’t engage in orogenital contact even if they are mohels_? **Bricker** , earlier in the thread, you went on about risks and how this is safer than a lot of things. How does that calculus work in the presence of a widely-used alternative with _none_ of the risks the mohels in question are so averse to pointing out? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/67 "2012-09-04T19:20:50Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Putting your mouth on an infant’s penis is dark and perverse in and of itself. I never thought I’d see the day where I’d have to actually type that out. How about putting your hands on an infant’s penis? Is that also inherently dark and perverse? Or do you favor adults putting their hands on infant genitals? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/68 "2012-09-04T19:24:47Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Did everyone miss the point in the linked article where _many, if not most, rabbis don’t engage in orogenital contact even if they are mohels_? > > **Bricker** , earlier in the thread, you went on about risks and how this is safer than a lot of things. How does that calculus work in the presence of a widely-used alternative with _none_ of the risks the mohels in question are so averse to pointing out? Earlier in the thread I wasn’t battling a smirky idiot who insists on describing this ritual in the most loaded, offensive terms possible. The question for the two widely-used alternatives: the gauze and the sterile glass – is whether or not they are acceptable. Most commentators say they are. Some do not. I certainly favor mandatory disclosure of the risks. I do not favor describing the procedure repeatedly in the most salacious terms one can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/69 "2012-09-04T19:25:41Z")
When you go off the deep end, you sure don’t mess around, do you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/70 "2012-09-04T19:33:32Z")
Sucking baby dick for God is _totally_ different than sucking baby dick for sexual grtatification. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/71 "2012-09-04T19:34:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sucking baby dick for God is _totally_ different than sucking baby dick for sexual grtatification. Got it. Once again, the sly innuendo triumphs. So is it just these Jews you hate, or all of 'em? And same question I asked earlier: How about putting your hands on an infant’s penis? Is that also inherently dark and perverse? Or do you favor adults putting their hands on infant genitals? ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/72 "2012-09-04T19:37:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I condone brief oral-genital contact between an adult and an infant as long as there’s a minimal risk of virus transmission, it’s done immediately following circumcision, it’s done by the person doing the circumcising, the person performing the act is a trained mohel acting in public and the act is performed for a pious purpose. Shouldn’t there be another clause on the end of that sentence, such as “and so long as the parents are fully informed about the procedure and it’s risks, and have given their consent.” Because that’s really what the thread is about - although you pretty successfully hijacked it with your nitpicking early on. In this case the government is not trying to ban circumcision with oral suction. They just say that the parents should be aware of the potential risk (e.g. 24 in 100,000 risk of transmission, with possibility of serious injury or death resulting). Then maybe the parents will choose to go ahead with the circumcision and oral suction, or maybe they’ll choose a mohel who does circumcision without suction. But it should be up to the parents to decide, and these mohels who want to ignore the law and not inform the parents are reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/73 "2012-09-04T19:37:34Z")
If you want me to defend my characterization, here goes: This is idiotic for not only a single reason (the refusal of the mohels to give any kind of warning) but for the second reason that there is no need for them to place their possibly-herpetic mouths on that open wound to begin with. That kind of idiocy rises to the level of maliciously endangering a human life. Their deliberate ignorance of, and contempt for, normal standards of hygiene indicates a disdain for normal standards of human behavior. And here, in the Pit, we can expose them to at least a small fraction of the mockery and revulsion their lack of humanity would, in a just world, bring down directly onto their heads. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/74 "2012-09-04T19:41:00Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > Shouldn’t there be another clause on the end of that sentence, such as “and so long as the parents are fully informed about the procedure and it’s risks, and have given their consent.” > > Because that’s really what the thread is about - although you pretty successfully hijacked it with your nitpicking early on. In this case the government is not trying to ban circumcision with oral suction. They just say that the parents should be aware of the potential risk (e.g. 24 in 100,000 risk of transmission, with possibility of serious injury or death resulting). Then maybe the parents will choose to go ahead with the circumcision and oral suction, or maybe they’ll choose a mohel who does circumcision without suction. But it should be up to the parents to decide, and these mohels who want to ignore the law and not inform the parents are reprehensible. I agree. And see? Not once did you describe this as anything other than what it was. My objection, from my first post, has been to the sniggering, thirteen-year-old mentality that felt the need to to discuss the dick-sucking of infants. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/75 "2012-09-04T19:43:07Z")
That’s a stupid thing to object to. Which, I suppose, explains why it was you who objected to it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/76 "2012-09-04T19:43:35Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > If you want me to defend my characterization, here goes: This is idiotic for not only a single reason (the refusal of the mohels to give any kind of warning) but for the second reason that there is no need for them to place their possibly-herpetic mouths on that open wound to begin with. That kind of idiocy rises to the level of maliciously endangering a human life. Their deliberate ignorance of, and contempt for, normal standards of hygiene indicates a disdain for normal standards of human behavior. And here, in the Pit, we can expose them to at least a small fraction of the mockery and revulsion their lack of humanity would, in a just world, bring down directly onto their heads. It’s interesting that you say this rises to the level of “maliciously endangering a human life.” A 24 in 100,000 chance of transmission rises to that level? If I were to show that more than 24 in 100,000 car trips end in accidents, would you also say that getting in your car and driving is “maliciously endangering a human life?” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/77 "2012-09-04T19:44:40Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > That’s a stupid thing to object to. Which, I suppose, explains why it was you who objected to it. On the contrary, it’s a stupid thing to do. Learn from your betters. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/78 "2012-09-04T19:46:30Z")
I’m glad you agree with me that your behavior was a stupid thing to do. Go forth and sin no more. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/79 "2012-09-04T20:00:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree. > > And see? Not once did you describe this as anything other than what it was. My objection, from my first post, has been to the sniggering, thirteen-year-old mentality that felt the need to to discuss the dick-sucking of infants. Yes. We get that that was your objection. And it’s a classic **Bricker** hijack of the thread. You couldn’t criticize the main point of the OP, so you picked a small part of it to obsess over. > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s interesting that you say this rises to the level of “maliciously endangering a human life.” > > A 24 in 100,000 chance of transmission rises to that level? > > If I were to show that more than 24 in 100,000 car trips end in accidents, would you also say that getting in your car and driving is “maliciously endangering a human life?” This wasn’t addressed to me, but I’d like to answer it. I’m probably biased since I’m in school to become a nurse, and I would say that it is absolutely malicious endangerment. There is a risk, that the mohels in the OP are now aware of even if they weren’t before, and they refuse to change their practices and they refuse to even inform the parents of the risk. So they know of the risk and the possible dangers, and they’re maliciously and intentionally continuing their old practices. This risk of HSV from oral suction is completely avoidable. People get in their cars and drive even though they are _aware of the risk_, and also knowing that some accidents are unavoidable and others are avoidable and precautions can be taken to decrease risk (i.e. defensive driving, wearing a seatbelt, having airbags). The mohels in the OP want to keep parents ignorant of the risk, and keep using a practice that is both unnecessary and avoidable, and not take any steps at all to decrease that risk. AFAIK, Jewish law does not demand that people risk their life or health. Jews should keep kosher, but it’s a choice between starvation and pork, then eat the damn pig. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606/80 "2012-09-04T20:15:29Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > Yes. We get that that was your objection. And it’s a classic **Bricker** hijack of the thread. You couldn’t criticize the main point of the OP, so you picked a small part of it to obsess over. Personally, I don’t think insinuating that Orthodox Jews are paedophiles is too minor to nitpick — even though I agree that the mohels have no acceptable reason for violating the law, by our rules or by their own. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > If the only thing something has going for it is longstanding religious practice, then yes, I feel no compunction to condone it. Letting people do things you dislike is what tolerance is all about. In this case, the government came up with a perfectly fair solution that was respectful to the religion, but your principle is stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-shitheads-defy-law-in-order-to-endanger-children/633606.md?page=5)