# Orthodoxy and amniocentesis **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 6, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100 "2002-10-06T21:00:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/1 "2002-10-06T21:00:42Z")
Great title. šŸ™‚ On _A Cable To Jewish Life_ a rabbi with a Downs Syndrome child is speaking with Rabbi Katzmann, and it is mentioned that abortion is not available to Jewish parents; Mrs. Plant heard them say ā€œneither is amniocentesisā€, that if it is done the child is put up for adoption. Far be it from me to contradict a Rabbi, (or, G-d forbid Mrs. Plant,) but is the later true? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/2 "2002-10-06T21:08:30Z")
I have not heard any opinions that state that doing an amnio is forbidden. However, not being a _posek_ (decisor of Jewish law), I would have to do further research. In any event, if an amnio is done (whether forbidden or not), one is not required to put the child up for adoption. Of this I am 99.9999% sure. I donā€™t know where that came from. Even if the amnio revealed birth defects, the parents can certainly choose to raise their own child. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/3 "2002-10-06T21:24:27Z")
I used to be a production intern for the producer of the show, a woman named Bea Moss. As I recall, very often, the guests on her show were Lubavitchers. I donā€™t know if Rabbi Katzmann or Mrs. Plant are Lubavitchers, but if they are, it certainly would explain a bit. I do know that the late Lubavitcher Rebbe was against doing routine ultrasounds. As a result, many (most?) Lubavitch women do not have them done. I would imagine (and Iā€™m guessing here, not being a Lubavitcher) that they would also not have routine amnios as well. But, in any event, I still canā€™t see the basis for saying that if one is done the child must be given up for adoption, even if a birth defect is found. Are you sure you heard correctly **carnivousplant**? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/4 "2002-10-06T21:26:01Z")
Whoops, sorry. I didnā€™t realize ā€œMrs. Plantā€ was your wife. I thought she was another guest on the show. My boo-booā€¦ Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/5 "2002-10-06T21:59:39Z")
It sounds like it could be a mixup of facts and ideas to me: If abortion is definitely not an option, what would be the point of amniocentesis? - It seems the only reason to do it would be that if the child has some ā€˜undesirableā€™ trait like Downs, the required mechanisms for adoption could be put into motion before birth. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/6 "2002-10-06T22:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\* Are you sure you heard correctly **carnivousplant**? > \*\* Rather did Mrs. Plant hear correctly, and that is what the post is about. ;j Rabbi Katzmann is Lubavitcher. Mrs. Plant is not, although she sings along with the ā€œMosiachā€ song at the end of the program. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/7 "2002-10-06T22:17:29Z")
PS-Any idea why the Rebbe was against ultrasound? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/8 "2002-10-07T01:41:55Z")
This sounds wacky to me. Arenā€™t there things that could be detected by an ultrasound and then treated in utero, so that the problem would either be corrected or much less severe by the time the baby was born? Does amnio only detect irreparable genetic defects? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/9 "2002-10-07T02:14:48Z")
Why would anyone be against ultrasounds??? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/10 "2002-10-07T02:50:24Z")
I just posted a question to Chabad, and will post the reply. Robin ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/11 "2002-10-07T03:16:00Z")
I imagine the objection to ultrasound and/or amnio would be that since Judaism does not allow abortion in case of a problem with the fetus, knowing about such things in advance can only cause grief and anxiety - and perhaps temptation to abort - therefore itā€™s better not to know. Once upon a time, this was true to a great degree. These days, there are things that can be done for a fetus in utero that can in fact help the fetus if it seems to not be developing properly. So I donā€™t know if such objections hold up. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/12 "2002-10-07T07:41:56Z")
There is also a (quite small) risk of miscarriage when amniocentesis is performed. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/13 "2002-10-07T12:34:57Z")
I suspect that the adoption thing was mentioned in relation to ā€œthe temptation to abortā€ (or put up for adoption). Some Baptists might adopt the child, and then where would you be? šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/14 "2002-10-07T16:12:18Z")
The ultrasounds though-isnā€™t this used for things like seeing if someone has twins, or sex of the baby? And donā€™t they use it for labor, to tell if the baby is in distress? I can see amniocentesis, but ultra sounds-arenā€™t they routine medical-and used for other medical situations? ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/15 "2002-10-09T11:36:00Z")
I think ultrasonuds may be regular anymore, my sister has had two, and a former coworker had one. I realize this is all very anecdotal, but i do not know of many pregnant women. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/16 "2002-10-09T14:38:35Z")
When I was pregnant, I had an ultrasound almost every appointment. Itā€™s just a quick and dirty way to check the health of the baby without going through a lot of uncomfortable tests. Robin ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/17 "2002-10-10T00:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*There is also a (quite small) risk of miscarriage when amniocentesis is performed. \*\* 1 in 200 chance of miscarriage as a result of amniocentisis. Some claim 1 in 400, but that is under a study where the doctors used ultra sound for needle placement which is not routine practice. The 1 in 200 is more typical of real world occurence. I canā€™t see either as a small enough risk. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/18 "2002-10-10T11:39:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > \*\* > 1 in 200 chance of miscarriage as a result of amniocentisis. Some claim 1 in 400, but that is under a study where the doctors used ultra sound for needle placement which is not routine practice. The 1 in 200 is more typical of real world occurence. > \*\* Ultrasound guidance isnā€™t routine practice in amniocentesis? How else does the OB place the needle properly into the uterus, and how does the OB not hit the fetus with the needle? From [this site](http://my.webmd.com/encyclopedia/article/3608.3956): > [@](#): > > \*\* > With the ultrasound picture as a guide, the doctor selects the safest position to insert a long, thin needle through the abdomen and into the uterus without hurting the fetus or placenta. If the fetus moves too close to the needle, the needle will be removed and the doctor will try again in another spot. \*\* Robin ---
**Author:** ![screech-owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@screech-owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/screech-owl)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/19 "2002-10-10T11:50:32Z")
Sideline question: what is a Lubavitcher, and why is that important? Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100/20 "2002-10-10T12:17:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by screech-owl \* > \*\*Sideline question: what is a Lubavitcher, and why is that important? > > Thank you. \*\* A Lubavitcher is a member of a sect of ultra-orthodox Jews that seeks to follow all commandments, and that includes commandments as applied to modern technology. Itā€™s important because the OP mentioned that his wife had heard that amniocentesis is not allowed according to Jewish law. Robin [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodoxy-and-amniocentesis/131100.md?page=2)