# Orwell SUCKS! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504 "2008-04-15T22:27:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/21 "2008-04-16T06:02:39Z")
This comment may seem wasteful, but I thought I’d add my two cents to state that while one may one may disagree with Orwell, he most certainly does not suck. Through his ideas on goverment and philosophy, his writing techinique, or his popularity, it fails to reason that he entirely sucks. I admit that **Smiling Bandit** may have some points, but I think it’s oversimplistic and trite to claim that Orwell sucks, espcially if the goal is to raise awareness of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/22 "2008-04-16T06:07:10Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Which, by coincidence, I happen to be reading right now. It’s quite interesting, knowing the thinker and writer into which he developed, to read material from so early in his career (it’s the first thing Blair published under the Orwell name, I believe). The style is quite stark, matter-of-fact, coldly observational, but with an intelligence and perspective just barely perceptible in the background, a careful, focused mind making deliberate choices about detail and consciously sculpting his scenes. There is true art in that, real talent; he makes it look easy but it absolutely, absolutely is not. It reads as reportage, as simply relating what he sees, the shapes of objects and the smells of places and the behavior of people, but it’s all so beautifully, beautifully done that the artistry almost disappears. His sky-high reputation is not an accident. The man was a giant. [/QUOTE] Absolutely. I think Orwell was at his best, in books like this, when he was engaging in this type of seemingly effortless and yet incredibly rich observation and description. And in some ways, this early book is probably the best example. It has much less of the overt moralizing and prescriptive finger-wagging that characterized works like _Road to Wigan Pier_, and that made that book such an exercise in exasperation for some readers–and indeed for its subjects, some of whom later took issue with Orwell’s description of how they lived, and what they saw as his condescension. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/23 "2008-04-16T07:56:20Z")
Anyone whose writings inspired David Bowie to create _Diamond Dogs_ can’t be all bad, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/24 "2008-04-16T09:34:57Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] I used to think George Orwell (Animal, 1984) was a genius. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I can see how him writing that Rob Schneider movie would disillusion you. ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/25 "2008-04-16T09:42:57Z")
Could I ask Smiling Bandit to do a pitting of Will Shakespeare? I think the Blackadder approach works best. Blackadder turns and knocks Shakespeare down with one clean punch. Blackadder- "That is for every schoolboy and schoolgirl for the next four hundred years. Have you any idea how much suffering you are going to cause. Hours spent at school desks trying to find one joke in A Midsummer Night’s Dream? Years wearing stupid tights in school plays and saying things like ‘What ho, my lord’ and ‘Oh, look, here comes Othello, talking total crap as usual’ [Blackie meets Willie](http://www.firth.com/BA.html) [Youtube clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM-Y1ch4b5c) ---
**Author:** ![Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buckler_of_Swashing)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/26 "2008-04-16T09:56:44Z")
I also love Orwell (and I’m not just claiming that). **smiling bandit** - while you’re perfectly entitled to dislike the writer and the work - it’s not whether you think he’s smart or accurate or right or a good person or even a good writer. You didn’t put the books down out of boredom, though you may have done so out of disgust. He had some kind of an effect on you. He made you think, he presented information that your brain was able to engage with and you questioned it - you questioned the man, his ideas, his method of communicating them and his motivations. He was doing something right. Just because you are opposed to or appalled by so many aspects of his work - doesn’t mean the work ‘sucks’. It means you disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/27 "2008-04-16T13:26:10Z")
[QUOTE=Buckler of Swashing] Just because you are opposed to or appalled by so many aspects of his work - doesn’t mean the work ‘sucks’. It means you disagree. [/QUOTE] Yes, **smiling bandit** saying that Orwell sucks does, in fact, mean that Orwell sucks. There is no objective measure of quality, no magic stick that we can wave over a novel and get a universally agreed upon determination of inherent goodness. “Orwell sucks” is a purely subjective statement. “Orwell is great” is similar. And both statements can be correct at the same time, simply because people have different tastes. And this is true, even when they don’t put the book down, but decide to read it to the end. Now, I personally don’t think that Orwell sucks. I’m a fan of his fiction. But “Politics and the English Language” sucks big time. It’s hilarious that in the same work where he recommends the active voice instead of the passive whenever possible, [his own passive usage runs at about 20%](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003366.html). That’s more than any survey of newspaper writing, which runs at the most at about 13%. I’m gonna give Orwell the benefit of the doubt and assume he was blithely ignorant and not disgusting hypocritical: It’s amazing how a person can so develop their craft in English composition, and yet be entirely unaware of their own writing habits. Orwell on language is just another example of someone who can’t help being a smarmy, oblivious, know-it-all, conceited jackass when they decide to opine about English. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/28 "2008-04-16T13:46:44Z")
Having read the complete works of George Orwell and this discussion so far, I’m going to say that he’s a more interesting and persuasive writer than any of you. Instead of reading to judge, you might try reading to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/29 "2008-04-16T13:54:44Z")
Thanks especially to **Cervaise** and **mhendo**. It would have taken me all day to respond half as cogently as you guys have. Glad now I don’t have to. What I can say is this: although **smiling bandit** does not have a huge profile here, over the past few years I have found that I disagree with him on absolutely everything, from politics and economics to games and books. I think he is the person here with whom I share the absolute least common ground. So since I believe he is wrong about just about everything important in the world, I am gratified also to see that he loathes Orwell. This can only mean that he is another cow likely to remain sacred for a good long time. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/30 "2008-04-16T14:15:53Z")
My two favorite books by Orwell are Burmese Days and Coming Up From Air. The first is heart-breaking and the second had me quivering with laughter the entire time I read it. I can think of few writers who can manage both devastating tragedy and fantastic satire. I also have found his essays and literary criticism illuminating. Whether or not “Politics and the English Language” is “correct,” it is a useful tool for young writers… though I find that the 20th Century advice to writers by luminaries such as White and Orwell is of decreasing relevance. They were cautioning against overdone writing, but those rules are now so well known they border on dogma, and if writers err, it is on the side of colorlessness instead of purpleness. When late 20th Century writers like Elmore Leonard and Stephen King continue with the same assault on adverbs, I wonder who they are talking to. I agree with the estimation of Animal Farm above – it’s probably his laziest work. 1984 is brilliant, but so well known it’s difficult to read it with clear eyes. That book is on a short list of most misread and most abusively alluded to, with his “Big Brother” character trotted out for such trivial things as enforcement of parking tickets or limited smoking bans. I guess it shows the extent that he caught the public imagination, and it’s a compliment, but it drives me mad when people do that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/31 "2008-04-16T14:39:34Z")
[QUOTE=JRDelirious] Orwell hates/fears totalitarianism, but apparently he fears that it’ll come because (a) democracies will fail to deliver the expected quality of life to the masses, and the masses will submit to a ruler who says if they can’t have a piece nobody will; or (b) because the masses will bow to a ruler that promises opression and meager rations rather than take chances on freedom but no guarantee of food. [/QUOTE] Actually, no. He’s much more concerned the masses will submit to a very different kind of ruler, one like Hitler, who offers them not bread and security and equality, but patriotism and struggle and sacrifice and excitement. ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/32 "2008-04-16T14:49:39Z")
[QUOTE=cricetus] My two favorite books by Orwell are Burmese Days and Coming Up From Air. The first is heart-breaking and the second had me quivering with laughter the entire time I read it. I can think of few writers who can manage both devastating tragedy and fantastic satire. [/QUOTE] _Burmese Days_ is my favorite Orwell novel. I read it for a class in college and re-read it for fun a few years later. I wouldn’t base my opinion of Orwell on the heavy-handed satire he’s most famous for, he is a hell of a writer if you can get into his lesser-known works. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/33 "2008-04-16T14:56:24Z")
I think Animal Farm is not trite and simplistic, mhendo. I think it is a popularization, a modern parable. It was written simplistically, in order to reach a larger and younger audience. Sort of the equivalent of Stephen J. Gould for political theory. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/34 "2008-04-16T15:11:39Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] I think Animal Farm is not trite and simplistic, mhendo. I think it is a popularization, a modern parable. It was written simplistically, in order to reach a larger and younger audience. Sort of the equivalent of Stephen J. Gould for political theory. [/QUOTE] Please tell me you really mean evolutionary biology and not political theory. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/35 "2008-04-16T15:13:13Z")
It was implied in the construction, I think. Orwell : politics :: Gould : biology. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/36 "2008-04-16T15:18:29Z")
[QUOTE=Stringer] _Burmese Days_ is my favorite Orwell novel. I read it for a class in college and re-read it for fun a few years later. I wouldn’t base my opinion of Orwell on the heavy-handed satire he’s most famous for, he is a hell of a writer if you can get into his lesser-known works. [/QUOTE] I would also strongly recommend his **non** fiction, particularly [_Homage to Catalonia_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_catalonia) (about his volunteer service in the Spanish Civil War), and any collection of his essays you can find. (You can find fifty of his essays online [here.](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html)) Do not judge him, **smiling bandit,** until you have read his essay, [“Why I Write.”](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part47) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/37 "2008-04-16T15:20:22Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] It was implied in the construction, I think. Orwell : politics :: Gould : biology. [/QUOTE] The moral of the story is do not post while on conference calls. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/38 "2008-04-16T15:50:43Z")
There’s only [one episode](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_orwell#Nineteen_Eighty-Four_and_final_years) in Orwell’s life that is nowadays considered in any way disreputable or even controversial, and it ain’t all that bad in context: > [@](#): > > In 1949, Orwell was approached by a friend, Celia Kirwan, who had just started working for a Foreign Office unit, the Information Research Department, which the Labour government had set up to publish anti-communist propaganda. He gave her a list of 37 writers and artists he considered to be unsuitable as IRD authors because of their pro-communist leanings. The list, not published until 2003, consists mainly of journalists (among them the editor of the New Statesman, Kingsley Martin) but also includes the actors Michael Redgrave and Charlie Chaplin. Orwell’s motives for handing over the list are unclear, but the most likely explanation is the simplest: that he was helping a friend in a cause — anti-Stalinism — that they both supported. There is no indication that Orwell abandoned the democratic socialism that he consistently promoted in his later writings — or that he believed the writers he named should be suppressed. Orwell’s list was also accurate: the people on it had all made pro-Soviet or pro-communist public pronouncements. In fact, one of the people on the list, Peter Smollett, the head of the Soviet section in the Ministry of Information, was later (after the opening of KGB archives) proven to be a Soviet agent, recruited by Kim Philby, and “almost certainly the person on whose advice the publisher Jonathan Cape turned down Animal Farm as an unhealthily anti-Soviet text”, although Orwell was unaware of this.[10] ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/39 "2008-04-16T20:58:59Z")
[QUOTE=Kendall Jackson] Now, I personally don’t think that Orwell sucks. I’m a fan of his fiction. But “Politics and the English Language” sucks big time. It’s hilarious that in the same work where he recommends the active voice instead of the passive whenever possible, [his own passive usage runs at about 20%](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003366.html). That’s more than any survey of newspaper writing, which runs at the most at about 13%. [/QUOTE] I think the following rules will cover most cases: (i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print. (ii) Never us a long word where a short one will do. (iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out. (iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active. (v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent. (vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous. ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504/40 "2008-04-16T21:01:09Z")
[QUOTE=Kendall Jackson] Yes, **smiling bandit** saying that Orwell sucks does, in fact, mean that Orwell sucks. [/QUOTE] If this is really true, would you and the bandit kindly kill yourselves [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orwell-sucks/445504.md?page=3)