# Osama bin Laden is Dead **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437 "2011-05-02T02:46:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/261 "2011-05-03T05:07:36Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > ObL gave no indication of being anything but another Saudi rich kid until the Soviet imperialist adventure in Afghanistan gave him A Cause[tm]. It is reasonable to assume that all Saudis were incited by the USSR’s subjugation of Afghanistan. Ditto Israel’s existence from 1948 onward. I see no conradiction between those facts and any statement I have made in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/262 "2011-05-03T12:09:46Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I guarantee you that even the trained experts that went on the mission could not have predicted in advance the other people’s actions. Amazingly, in [this](http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclusive/20110502/pl_yblog_exclusive/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden) article linked to in another thread, if I’m reading it right it would appear that even _that_ is something these JSOC teams are trying to address. \*“These cells also used highly advanced surveillance technology and computer-based pattern analysis to layer predictive models of insurgent behavior onto real-time observations.” \* > [@Commissar](#): > > Sometimes I do not understand Westerners. Darn. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/263 "2011-05-03T12:32:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, strictly speaking, the Mujhadin were created out of the intersection of religious fervor, Russia’s invasion of Afghanistan, and the US’ attempts to keep Afghanistan from being dominated by Russia. But without the Russian attempt to dominate Afghanistan, Bin Laden would’ve just been an egghead schmuck with a fondness for Qutb. Which brings me to: > > Not really. Bin Laden’s grudge against Saudi Arabia went far beyond his hatred of the US or our stationing troops there. He was essentially a product of Qutb’s teachings and the religious fervor that typified much of the resistance to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Isn’t it fairly clear that he felt that other nations like the US and Russia were only interested in the resources available to them in Muslim nations and would gladly, use, manipulate, and/or conquer these nations for their own self interests. IOW, no real interest in the freedom or will of the citizens of Muslim nations. Wasn’t the invasion of Iraq a fulfillment of his prediction that America would invade and occupy an oil rich Arab nation? I think the element of truth in those sentiments coupled with religious fervor gave birth to AQ. Our presence in SA was a part of that , which is why , after we had troops in Iraq, we withdrew from SA to make it easier for our partners there. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/264 "2011-05-03T12:53:24Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Come on Christians! Enjoy and Celebrate MURDER! Daniel Pearl. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/265 "2011-05-03T13:22:25Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Come on Christians! Enjoy and Celebrate MURDER! Is it OK if I celebrate too, even though I am not a Christian? Hell with it, I don’t need anybody’s goddam permission: :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/266 "2011-05-03T20:20:23Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I don’t believe the human shield thing for a second. I could be convinced otherwise, but only with rock-solid evidence like video. It’s just too comic-booky. > [@RaftPeople](#): > > Why do you think you have any kind of accurate insight into what actually happened in a military raid in which you were not involved? > > There are a million variables related to human emotions, desire to survive, sequence of events that were actually occurring, etc., etc., etc. - it’s pretty damn bizarre to think that you can determine what happened based on whether the description of events sounds cliche or not. > > I guarantee you that even the trained experts that went on the mission could not have predicted in advance the other people’s actions. > [@Cisco](#): > > I’ve heard too many first-hand accounts from servicemen about the military feeding the media bullshit; I read the detailed account of the attempt at hero creation in _Where Men Win Glory_, I saw the Captain fuck up and kill civilians in _Restrepo_, and then not even be able to admit it to himself when he was talking about it later, even though it was on camera. > > I’m not saying I know what happened. Maybe they did use women as human shields. I highly doubt it, though; it just fits too well into the narrative of bin Laden as Count Nefaria. It’s much more plausible to me that they accidentally shot a woman (or hell, maybe she was shooting at them), and said to themselves after the fact: “well, this is a no-brainer.” [CNN:](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/03/white-house-bin-laden-was-unarmed-when-killed/?hpt=T1) > [@](#): > > In bin Laden’s building, three people were killed on the first floor, including two al Qaeda couriers and a woman “who was killed in crossfire,” Carney said. Carney said it’s unclear whether anyone used the woman as a human shield; U.S. officials previously said that a woman was used as such. I’m shocked. _Shocked!_ Further speculation: there’s video, and they know they can’t keep it under wraps forever. I applaud them for being so up front this early. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/267 "2011-05-03T20:38:48Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > It is reasonable to assume that all Saudis were incited by the USSR’s subjugation of Afghanistan. Ditto Israel’s existence from 1948 onward. I see no conradiction between those facts and any statement I have made in this thread. The point was to set the record straight, lest someone be misled by **Commissar** ’s, er, idiosyncratic interpretation of history. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/268 "2011-05-03T20:48:43Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I’m not saying I know what happened. Maybe they did use women as human shields. I highly doubt it, though; it just fits too well into the narrative of bin Laden as Count Nefaria. The narrative? I don’t think this is a question of public relations and spin…can’t we stipulate that bin Laden was unequivocally an evil motherfucker? And not just misunderstood? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/269 "2011-05-03T20:50:13Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > The narrative? I don’t think this is a question of public relations and spin…can’t we stipulate that bin Laden was unequivocally an evil motherfucker? And not just misunderstood? [Rashard Mendenhall](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/05/03/rashard.mendenhall.osama.bin.laden.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a13&eref=sihp) would like to hear both sides… ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/270 "2011-05-03T21:56:39Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > [CNN:](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/03/white-house-bin-laden-was-unarmed-when-killed/?hpt=T1) > I’m shocked. _Shocked!_ > > Further speculation: there’s video, and they know they can’t keep it under wraps forever. I applaud them for being so up front this early. It could turn out that you are correct. But it is entirely possible that it happened - I simply disagree with that type of speculation when pretty much anything can and does happen in situations like that. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/271 "2011-05-03T22:26:44Z")
My access to the internet is intermittent at the moment. just want to say as a furriner! Well done Mr President! you picked up the ball that was dropped by your predecessor and slam dunked it double tapped! Well done your special forces. The cowardly scum eliminated! What a result! I hope the intelligence found on his computers leads to more successes for the whole effort in defeating these cowardly murderers. Well done you Ham Shanks!! ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/272 "2011-05-03T22:32:05Z")
So I went to Judah’s school to grab him and stopped in the office. The little ‘piece of Lego art’ was still there. I pulled the principal aside when she walked in and asked her to remove it. (There were kids in the office and I didn’t want to talk too loudly.) She was hesitant, but I was about to make a stink in front of 8 other adults, so she said she’d ‘put it aside’ until she could ‘return it to the owner’ (a fifth grader brought it in from home, i guess, to ‘display’ in his class and the classroom teacher rejected it). One of the kids picked it up and was like, “Oh, this little guy is loose!” and ‘fixed’ it. She handed it to the secretary and I bluntly said, “Get rid of that.” I’m fine with ObL being dead. I’m kind of worried about ‘round 2’. But a fifth grader bringing in a lego statue/thinger of an assassination to ‘share and display’ with his class? Letting it sit (and kids were so into it, I noticed) all day in the front office? And then the principal is all tsk tsking me like I’m some kind of jihadist sympathizer. :eek: Wtf. I was ready to chuck it at her. “That’s bad PR, Marci!” ---
**Author:** ![JFLuvly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac91a4/32.png) [@JFLuvly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JFLuvly)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/273 "2011-05-03T23:33:09Z")
> [@](#): > > So I went to Judah’s school to grab him and stopped in the office. The little ‘piece of Lego art’ was still there. I pulled the principal aside when she walked in and asked her to remove it. (There were kids in the office and I didn’t want to talk too loudly.) > > She was hesitant, but I was about to make a stink in front of 8 other adults, so she said she’d ‘put it aside’ until she could ‘return it to the owner’ (a fifth grader brought it in from home, i guess, to ‘display’ in his class and the classroom teacher rejected it). One of the kids picked it up and was like, “Oh, this little guy is loose!” and ‘fixed’ it. She handed it to the secretary and I bluntly said, “Get rid of that.” > > I’m fine with ObL being dead. I’m kind of worried about ‘round 2’. But a fifth grader bringing in a lego statue/thinger of an assassination to ‘share and display’ with his class? Letting it sit (and kids were so into it, I noticed) all day in the front office? > > And then the principal is all tsk tsking me like I’m some kind of jihadist sympathizer. > > Wtf. I was ready to chuck it at her. “That’s bad PR, Marci!” WTF are you talking about? Did I miss a post or something? ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/274 "2011-05-04T01:20:26Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > **Osama bin Laden is Dead** Like ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/275 "2011-05-04T02:51:25Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Come on Christians! Enjoy and Celebrate MURDER! yeah, about that. He was responsible for driving 4 wide body aircraft full of people into buildings full of people. They were people of every race and religion. Why would you make a statement like this? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/276 "2011-05-04T03:45:04Z")
> [@JFLuvly](#): > > WTF are you talking about? Did I miss a post or something? i believe that was to be in the pit thread. it does seem to come out of nowhere, but it appears that a child in the school that judah attends did a lego diarama of the seal operation. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/277 "2011-05-04T03:58:51Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So I went to Judah’s school to grab him and stopped in the office. The little ‘piece of Lego art’ was still there. I pulled the principal aside when she walked in and asked her to remove it. (There were kids in the office and I didn’t want to talk too loudly.) > > She was hesitant, but I was about to make a stink in front of 8 other adults, so she said she’d ‘put it aside’ until she could ‘return it to the owner’ (a fifth grader brought it in from home, i guess, to ‘display’ in his class and the classroom teacher rejected it). One of the kids picked it up and was like, “Oh, this little guy is loose!” and ‘fixed’ it. She handed it to the secretary and I bluntly said, “Get rid of that.” > > I’m fine with ObL being dead. I’m kind of worried about ‘round 2’. But a fifth grader bringing in a lego statue/thinger of an assassination to ‘share and display’ with his class? Letting it sit (and kids were so into it, I noticed) all day in the front office? > > And then the principal is all tsk tsking me like I’m some kind of jihadist sympathizer. > > :eek: > > Wtf. I was ready to chuck it at her. “That’s bad PR, Marci!” I think the kid should get extra credit, and the only thing I am worried about is people like you discouraging him and others like him from wanting to be Seals and kill terrorists when they grow up. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/278 "2011-05-04T04:35:08Z")
> [@JFLuvly](#): > > WTF are you talking about? Did I miss a post or something? Oops…too many bin Laden threads. :smack: > [@rocking\_chair](#): > > i believe that was to be in the pit thread. it does seem to come out of nowhere, but it appears that a child in the school that judah attends did a lego diarama of the seal operation. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/279 "2011-05-04T12:39:16Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > I think the kid should get extra credit, and the only thing I am worried about > is people like you discouraging him and others like him from wanting to be > Seals and kill terrorists when they grow up. Or lego sculptors. Or, wait… Navy Seals who bring a tactical duffle of Legos along to do quick dioramas of the mission. Judah might be uniquely qualified, and I hope his teachers and parents encourage him. digs –a Christian who’s celebrating (thanks, Naxos, for permission) ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437/280 "2011-05-04T13:32:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The conspiracy minded may believe that he is in custody now being tortured for information before being disposed of at sea. The truly conspiracy minded will believe that OSL never existed at all and was merely a fictional creation of the CIA used to justify invading the middle east. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-laden-is-dead/580437.md?page=15)