Osama bin Laden vs. hog producers. Who's more dangerous??

[wring]

actually, Poly with all due respect, Willy did make that comparison :

If you are still wondering if corporate** hog producers rival the destruction of Osama**, take a gander at here;

rival the destruction of Osama (which of course included the 3000 murdered people)
to which I replied

I said "Ya know Willy we’d just about put the ‘pork farmers do not equal Ossama’ hyperbole to rest.

and

and however to make the link/comparison to OBL, WTC bombings is in fact hyperbolic crap and shouldn’t be encouraged.

he replied

The comparison is a bit of a stretch as to the methods but the results are devastating in both cases. (snip) The entire nation saw the planes destroy the WTC. We just don’t get that kind of press here.

Which does in fact make the comparison that gee, if only we’d have the press coverage similar to 9/11, everyone could see. Not, ‘this is bad, too’ but 'it’s only the lack of press coverage. my reply was

Person A has as his intent the causation of death and destruction. and causes same, to a great degree

Person B has as his intent greed, and to gain $$ does stuff that as an effect, damages the planet, destroys people’s lifestyles over time.

they aren’t even in the same fucking ballpark.
nor is some corporate fucking goon who damages the environment while causing havoc among those folks who live nearby anyfucking thing like a maniac who plots and plans for years to specifically cause as many civilian deaths as possible in as short of time as possible.

, spelling out very specific, and real differences in the two situations, which makes the comparison invalid.

his reply

I never said “it’s just like OBL”. It is not just like OBL but there can be a comparison made. Wonder how much money we have spent searching for ONE MAN while an entire industry that is killing my home land goes unchecked? Osama is just one man.

so he seemed to try and back track, except, of course, that gosh, 9/11 was the result of ‘one man’ vs. the hog farmers, who are many. Apparently by now, we’re supposed to be more upset about the hog farmers than OBL (of course, he fails to understand that the organization that OBL is with is the issue, not OBL himself)
and on to the most egregious direct comparison .

If you know the pain of 9/11 then maybe you can feel the pain of a devastated population at the shitty end of a river of hog waste.

Bullfuckingshit. 3000 intentional murders, the crippling of a city’s economy, their fire department and rescue operations, not to mention the incredible loss of property all occuring in one motherfucking day is a wholefuckinglot bigger than an industry through corporate greed and lack of governmental regulations, performing wreckage and destruction of a piece of the environment. Yes, the latter is reprehensible, but you know what else it is? Some of it is reversable (if not now, at some point in the future), slower, and certainly a whole fuck of a lot less deadly.

And, to the person above who noted that there had been some illnesses then deaths linked to this. Yes, no shit, everybody mourns deaths of loved ones. And yet still, there’s a very fucking real difference between several deaths from illness from an accident (even if it’s linked to corporate greed) and 3000 intentional murders

And if you don’t believe it, then I suggest that you refrain from speaking to anyone who’s had a loved one murdered. You’d be likely to say something heartless like “I know what you’re going through, my uncle died of TB”.

IT’s heartless (generally) to compare grief. IT’s especially egregious if it’s done to attempt to publicize one’s pet cause (even if it’s a worthy cause)

and, Poly what **Willy ** hasn’t fucking gotten yet is that by continuing to draw the comparison, he’s hurting his own cause. Like I posted earlier, it’s much easier for people to dismiss hyperbolic argumentation, then closely examine it for the truth.

So, if he’d simply start saying “9/11 was horrific. While this doesn’t compare in level and intensity, it, too is a horrible, horrible situation, and there’s quite a few things that we can do to correct/help the situation”. then people would be less willing to call him to the pit, and might actually listen to what he’s saying. fer cryin out loud, my first posting in this thread was saying that the statement didn’t appear to be accurate quote, if it was an accurate quote it was reprehensible, but the lesser statement of ‘this sucks’ (in essence) did appear to be true. But **Willy ** has continued to come and defend the ‘comparison’, and as I quoted above, even implying that the hog producers are ‘even’ or ‘worse’ (there’s more of them than just one man and his comment that if you’d seen the devestation at 9/11 then “Maybe” you can feel the pain of this"

[fluiddruid]

*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding *
**Hey, Fluid, (this being the pit) Get your head out of your ass; we are on the same side in this fight. My point is that we back country hicks are fully aware of what big time livestock production is doing to our State. **

I’m afraid that wasn’t apparent from your post, but I’m glad that you agree.

**

The last thing we need is for some outsider (like Mr. Kennedy) whose sole claim to our attention is a famous name, telling us what we already know: that for too long we have been held captive by corporate agriculture. **

Well, knowing about it and doing something about it are two different things. I for one would be glad if this sort of pollution became a national issue if that pressured our state legislature to do something about it. Let’s face it – the corporate hog producers are the people with the power in this state.

**

With the reapportionment of the legislature, however, we can hope that the grip the Ag-business Trust has had on out collective testicles is about to be loosened.**

Frankly, I wouldn’t hold my breath, but I certainly hope so.

**

Fluid, you are closer to the excesses of monster confinement set-ups than I am. DeKoster’s several pig factories are just up the road from you. This part of the State is more inclined to small and medium sized dairy operations that to thousands and thousands of sows and feeder pigs under one roof. Like most people, I would be less than pleased if one of these operations set up quarter mile up wind from my home. **

Yes, exactly. Yet it’s not enough to show this sort of criticism – and this seems to be the only criticism that gets any press (ie. I want big hog factories and cheap pork, just not near me). This is why I am doing my part by not eating pork, as I figure the vote I get with my dollar is worth a lot more on this issue than the vote I get on election day.

**

The fact remains, however that so long as a hog (or chicken or beef or dairy or mink or what ever) confinement facility meets pretty minimum manure management standards as enforced by and increasingly over worked and under staffed and funded Dept. of Natural Resources there is nothing I can do about it under the law as it stands today.**

Of course there are things that you can do about it, you just can’t expect politicians to step up and do it for you. If you think the issue is important, there are ways to enact change. Fatalism sure never solved a problem.

**

As to whether Boy Bobby made the comparison between Big Hog and OBL, it is pretty clear to me that he said something of the sort and that its purpose and effect was to further polarize a fundamentally local issue. He just was not being helpful. **

Perhaps not. I wasn’t at the speech, and I’m afraid I don’t trust the Des Moines Register for an accurate account. (The papers out here in the Midwest really are shit, I’m sorry to say.) I share the disgust over sensationalizing every issue by connecting it OBL / 9.11, though I do think that backup would be very much appreciated if it gets us anywhere.

I just don’t see such a polarization between national and local issues. A lot of rural areas seem to have this sort of feeling and I’m afraid – as a person who’s lived in different parts of the country – I don’t share it. When local officials are king of their respective hills and won’t budge on an important issue, I think it’s acceptable that an outsider speaks up when enough locals don’t. After all, we don’t have that many high profile liberals in this state who have enough influence to bring up the issue. Unfortunately, it seems to have backfired, but I for one would like people from outside to start pressuring us. We haven’t done anything without this pressure, and I’m beginning to doubt that we ever will.

[Sweet_Willy]

Wring, I am sorry if you take offense at the comparison. I am very pissed at the people responsible for ruining the Fishery, the livelyhood, the water, and the marine life in my home. It has been done systematically with the co operation of the people that were elected to ensure the quality of life here. They did not set out to kill a bunch of people, like Osama. They set out to make a bunch of money with little regard to me or my neighbors or my fish or my children. The level of destruction is beyond 9/11 in many, many ways and much of it is irreversible. You can build a new trade center. You can’t bring back extinct shellfish. You can’t have a summit with the speckled trout and convince them to come back to the Neuse. You can’t have an open house at Adams creek and invite all the jimmy crabs back. I am sorry if it offends you, but if that is what it takes to get your attention, then so be it. BTW, next time you see John Edwards or Jim Hunt or Loch Faircloth out on the campaign trail, remember just how much these guys did for us and know that they can do it for you too.

P.S. If they capture Osama alive, it would be fitting to drown him in a festering cesspool of hog shit.

[Spavined_Gelding]

Fluid, the comment about our inability to do anything about having a Big Pig set up in out back yard is simply an accurate recitation of the law in this State as it exists now. This is not fatalism. It is reality. However, I fully expect to see the legislature do something about it next session. As things now stand, under the 1990 reapportionment, representatives from districts containing some 40% of the population make up a majority of both houses. Under the 2000 reapportionment the imbalance will be temporarily corrected and the urban areas will gain representation and the rural areas will lose representatives. The new apportionment will be in effect for the legislature that meets next January. Once that happens I fully expect to see some sort of local control over big confinement facilities.

Certainly, for economic reasons, big confinement facilities will continue to be built. Up to now the power of the Ag-business lobby has made them out of bounds most regulation by the State and entirely exempt from local control. A legislature based on the State’s present demographics will be much less subject to strong arming by Big Ag than the last outfit. I expect the next legislature to do something about our problem.

[fluiddruid]

*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding *
Fluid, the comment about our inability to do anything about having a Big Pig set up in out back yard is simply an accurate recitation of the law in this State as it exists now. This is not fatalism. It is reality.

I am talking about doing something in a general, not a specifically legal, sense.

I hope you’re right about the legislature, but we’ll see.

[wring]

you know** Willy** you keep appologizing then keep doing the same thing. Apologies are only sincere if you stop the offensive behavior.

I understand the difference between killing a species and destroying a building, killing thousands, making many more thousands homeless, more unemployed, financially devestated, all while they got to breath in the air that contained bits of their loved ones. yep.

Don’t bother appologizing to me. YOu belittle the experience of those who’ve been traumetized by saying ‘it’s worse down here, at least you didn’t kill of a species of animal’.

Worse and myopic yet, you’ve not ever acknowledged that it’s likely that you’re doing your cause harm by this tactic. you allow people who don’t want to believe you, to easily dismiss your position; and at the same time alientate those people (like me and other liberals) who resent hyperbolic statements, meaningless comparisons to an international tragedy, all to ‘get people’s attentions’.

Shrug.

so be it.

[Polycarp]

Point taken, and I’d effectively disregarded the fact that Willy did endorse the comparisons, more or less.

Look, troop. Because something is important, and IMHO the problems here and in Iowa are important, does not justify belittling the unprovoked attacks that killed thousands – I remember worrying about and praying for several downtown-NYC and DC-near-the-Pentagon friends from this board who were not heard of for some time after the attack.

[Sweet_Willy]

Wring, Did you see all the wise cracks and belittlement in the begining of this thread? Some people think this comparison is funny and belittle our catastrophie.

Geez…I better call my brother. He’s a manager of a hog farm just outside Ida Grove. If the government is about to arrest all those nasty hard-working hog-farmers, I’d better give him a heads up.

That is, if I can get hold of him…he works about 80 hours a week…

“Was it a plane full of pigs that plowed into the north tower of the World Trade Center?”

—I know it’s not funny, but I can’t help thinking of “Pigs In Spaaaace: The Final Chapter!”

If we could ask the pigs, you know they’d be all about Osama. He’s not eating them.

Terrorist pigs. I’m gonna cook up some bacon tonight.

and this is from the OP.

Did hog producers bomb the U.S.S. Cole?

Was it a plane full of pigs that plowed into the north tower of the World Trade Center?

Was it a faction of those radical pig farmers who bombed the U.S. embassies in Africa?

Now, granted, I don’t have much use for pork products. But, come on! This is soooooooooooooooooooooo far over the top that I couldn’t believe about it when I read it.

I will lay off the comparison. This shit aint funny. What you said here is to start with is probably the best way to get at it.

something along the lines of ‘while attention is focused on the threats of terrorists, we forget the enemy within’

[wring]

yes, I saw them, and that was the point I was making about using 9/11 as a comparison. It harmed your cause, because, as you saw (finally), it was so hyperbolic as to be meaningless, allowing people to dismiss your cause as being irrationally stated.

I will lay off the comparison.

good.

. This shit aint funny.

correct.