# Osama bin Ladin - Dead or Alive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2001, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598 "2001-11-15T20:50:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/1 "2001-11-15T20:50:38Z")
[‘Dead or Alive’ - for Bin Laden, Some in Congress Say Dead Would Be Better](http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA72XAZ2UC.html) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (AP) - As special forces try to fulfill President Bush’s desire to get Osama bin Laden “dead or alive,” many lawmakers say bluntly that dead is preferable. They are concerned about a trial, whether in open court or closed military tribunal. > “Kill him. Shoot him. I mean it,” Democrat Joseph Biden of Delaware, chairman of the Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee, said in an interview. “I don’t want to capture him. … Unless he’s walking out with a white flag, saying ‘I surrender,’ I’d shoot him.” > [@](#): > > Some members of Congress think a public trial would be the best scenario if bin Laden is not killed in battle. > > “It gives us a chance not only to show that we’re a country that stands for the rule of law, but it also gives us a chance to make the case, not just to the judges but to world opinion - chiefly to Muslim and Arab world opinion - why this man is an enemy to all people,” said Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn. My feeling is that dead is better. I’m not sure whether the actual evidence against BL is of the type that would hold up in court. You can “know” things, and even take military action on their basis, but this does not necessarily mean that “guilt beyond reasonable doubt” can be proved in court. (I’m unsure of what difference there is in a military court). I’m skeptical of the argument that a trial will make a case to the world that he is guilty. There are people out there who believe that OJ is innocent - I can’t imagine that there is stronger evidence against OBL. (Besides, OBL is a hero to millions of people; I don’t think OJ inspired the same passion prior to his trial). People who believe that the Mossad engineered the WTC bombing are not going to be impressed by OBL being tried in some US kangaroo court which is obviously framing that great Islamic leader. Sometimes the only way to impress people is by showing that you can bomb them into oblivion. Meanwhile the good thing about killing him is that you will have less publicity by and about the guy in years to come, and fewer people taking hostages demanding his release. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/2 "2001-11-15T21:13:30Z")
I don’t think that there’ll be any danger of us having to worry about taking Bin Laden alive. Either Bin Laden will fight to the death or he’ll be “killed while trying to escape” (i.e., they’ll find him and won’t even bother asking for him to surrender, they’ll just pop him). Personally, I hope they kill him. It might turn him into a martyr, but I kind of doubt it. It’ll be a lot easier to shoot him in Afghanistan, than to try and keep him alive long enough for a trail. There’s also the threat of increased terrorist attacks by his followers trying to break him out of where ever he’s being held, which puts more of our soldiers in danger. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/3 "2001-11-15T22:04:28Z")
By now he has probably shaved, changed his hat, bought a tie and a metaphorical plane ticket to Libya or Iraq, and we will have to do it all over again. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/4 "2001-11-15T23:21:37Z")
how would you find a “jury of his peers”? (dredge the sewer system, maybe?) as a non-citizen, do we owe him any of the rights enjoyed by citizens? i say, SCREW IT! find him, torture him to get him to divulge information on other terrorist networks and plans. we don’t own him jack as far as “fair treatment” or “rules of law”. if he doesn’t talk, he is of no use, and so he dies in torture. if he talks, good for him! he lives a few more days… (sorry about this, i’m in kind of a bad mood today…) ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/5 "2001-11-15T23:44:11Z")
I have already heard so many stories - he’s had plastic surgery and left Afghanistan long ago, or he’s in another middle-eastern coutry sans beard, or he’s … I hope he has a slow painful death, renounces all his beliefs in the process, and curses they day he decided to make war with the U.S. But since there is little chance of that happening, and even if it does, we’ll never see it, I’ll just say it would be better if he sat on a granade rather than sitting at trial. I think there is way too much opportunity for other disasters if we put him on trial anywhere in the west. Maybe China can do it - they have no trouble keeping undesirables away. On the other hand, I can almost hear the networks salivating over the possibility of a long trial - think of the ratings! Talk about trial of the century. ---
**Author:** ![geepee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ebca7d/32.png) [@geepee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geepee)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/6 "2001-11-16T00:40:36Z")
Doesn’t matter if we catch him alive or dead he’ll still end up dead , the people who try him will just put on a sham show trial where the verdict is already decided without a fair trial .Thing is if we don’t get his head as proof he is dead he could become another Lord Lucan / Hitler as in are they really dead or how did they die sort of situation. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/7 "2001-11-16T01:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tradesilicon \* > \*\*Talk about trial of the century. \*\* And since we’ve started a new century, it would be. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/8 "2001-11-16T13:17:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > I don’t think that there’ll be any danger of us having to worry about taking Bin Laden alive. Either Bin Laden will fight to the death or he’ll be “killed while trying to escape” (i.e., they’ll find him and won’t even bother asking for him to surrender, they’ll just pop him). This depends on who catches him. If it is the Northern Alliance, it is likely true. But if US special forces, I’m sure they would not do this. Slightly off topic: the NA evidently nabbed some top Taliban folks yesterday, and are “questioning” them. I heard a US military spokesman saying he didn’t know what was being done to them but “I would not want to be in their shoes right now”. ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/9 "2001-11-16T14:08:35Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by IzzyR If it is the Northern Alliance, it is likely true. But if US special forces, I’m sure they would not do this. [QUOTE] I disagree. If ordered to do so, a team of Navy Seals, Green Berets, or Marine SF’s would have no qualms killing OBL. None. Of course, it’s been reported that OBL’s sons have already sworn to their father that, if and when circumstances warrant, they will kill him to prevent his capture. The real point is that OLB has already passed the torch to a new generation of terrorists who will be united by his death. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/10 "2001-11-16T14:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > > I don’t think that there’ll be any danger of us having to worry about taking Bin Laden alive. Either Bin Laden will fight to the death or he’ll be “killed while trying to escape” (i.e., they’ll find him and won’t even bother asking for him to surrender, they’ll just pop him). > > This depends on who catches him. If it is the Northern Alliance, it is likely true. But if US special forces, I’m sure they would not do this. > \*\* I disagree. If he’s taken alive, we open a big, messy can o’ worms. He’ll get popped. I don’t think anyone wants to get into death penalty debate over this guy. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/11 "2001-11-16T14:25:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tsunamisurfer \* > If ordered to do so, a team of Navy Seals, Green Berets, or Marine SF’s would have no qualms killing OBL. None. Possible. But it is inconceivable that they would be ordered to do so. When I think of the question of “dead or alive”, I envision a scenario where the US has identified his location and can either send in a team of Special Forces to capture him or blow him up. The idea that he would be captured and then sumarily executed by US forces is not on the table, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/12 "2001-11-16T14:40:37Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by spooje \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > I disagree. If he’s taken alive, we open a big, messy can o’ worms. He’ll get popped. I don’t think anyone wants to get into death penalty debate over this guy. \*\* Why would it be a can of worms? If we have enough evidence to start a “war” over this, and enough evidence to convince the Arabs, Europeans, Russians, etc. that he’s the man behind it, shouldn’t a trial be a formality? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/13 "2001-11-16T15:10:15Z")
To clarify: the quote in the previous post by **The Great Gazoo** is by **spooje** , not myself. (Though I agree with “can of worms” part, I don’t think it will necessarily lead to his being “popped” by the US, as mentioned) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/14 "2001-11-16T16:29:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* The idea that he would be captured and then sumarily executed by US forces \*\* No, if ordered to kill him they would kill him in the attack, not capture him and then whack him. Perhaps they have instructions to whack the guys who are supposed to whack OBL on capture. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/15 "2001-11-16T18:49:04Z")
Ideally, I’d say alive, just to show that “we” (meaning the rest of the civilized world) believes in due process and fair trials. Sure, it’d be uncomfortable giving him a chance to spew more propaganda, but the deterrent to that is the truth. And I’m sure the evidence we’ve collected connecting bin Laden to the attacks is solid enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Realistically, I don’t think this will happen – either he’ll get killed in the attacks, or he’ll die soon of kidney disease anyway (I believe he’s only expected to live another year or two). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/16 "2001-11-16T20:05:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by tsunamisurfer \* > > If ordered to do so, a team of Navy Seals, Green Berets, or Marine SF’s would have no qualms killing OBL. None. > > Possible. But it is inconceivable that they would be ordered to do so. > > When I think of the question of “dead or alive”, I envision a scenario where the US has identified his location and can either send in a team of Special Forces to capture him or blow him up. The idea that he would be captured and then sumarily executed by US forces is not on the table, IMHO. \*\* They wouldn’t have to be ordered to do so at all. I saw an interview with Rumsfeld where someone asked him if he thought the executive order which had been written a number of years ago which prohibited the US for assassinating people would hamstring us in this effort. And his response was basically, “Uh, no, this is war, and things happen in war.” Which I took to mean that if some US soldier stumbled across Bin Laden and whacked him, there’d not be too big a fuss made over the matter. Mind you, I’m reconstructing this from memory so it may not be 100% accurate. ---
**Author:** ![jk1245](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@jk1245](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jk1245)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/17 "2001-11-16T21:01:09Z")
I’m torn on this one. On the one hand, capturing him and putting him on trial would show the world that we respect the rule of law, even for sub-human scum like ObL. It would also show that he did NOT escape somehow to inspire more mayhem in some other country. Plus, he wouldn’t be set up as some martyr for the cause. OTOH, keeping him in a prison would no doubt cause more acts meant to free him. I also wouldn’t want to risk US forces just to catch him if they can take him out from afar. There are already reports of Taliban soldiers surrendering, then opening fire as NA troops move in to round them up. I could imagine him surrendering to a squad of special ops while carrying grenades, dynamite, or god knows what under his clothes. They move in, and he takes a half-dozen or more of our best troops with him. In a perfect world, catching, trying, and then punishing him is IMHO, the best solution. Since this is far from a perfect world, I think the best answer is to take him out, hopefully at close enough range that we can get some evidence that he is really dead. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/18 "2001-11-16T23:19:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\* kidney disease \*\* Is that why he is such a grump? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/19 "2001-11-18T03:48:53Z")
I just heard today via email that the US has captured bin Laden. The US planes sprayed Afghanistan with Viagra, and the little prick just sprang right up. 😉 (running off…) ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2001, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598/20 "2001-11-18T05:35:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gatopescado \* > \*\*how would you find a “jury of his peers”? (dredge the sewer system, maybe?) > as a non-citizen, do we owe him any of the rights enjoyed by citizens? > > i say, SCREW IT! find him, torture him to get him to divulge information on other terrorist networks and plans. we don’t own him jack as far as “fair treatment” or “rules of law”. if he doesn’t talk, he is of no use, and so he dies in torture. if he talks, good for him! he lives a few more days… > (sorry about this, i’m in kind of a bad mood today…) \*\* Howevermuch I tend to agree with _El **Gato** _ right now, I think the scenario below is much more likely. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carnivorousplant \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > \*\* The idea that he would be captured and then sumarily executed by US forces \*\* > > No, if ordered to kill him they would kill him in the attack, not capture him and then whack him. > Perhaps they have instructions to whack the guys who are supposed to whack OBL on capture. \*\* I think that it is much more useful to capture him alive in order to demonstrate that **no-fucking-body involved with this sort of attack on US soil is fucking-ever going to escape our clutches**. We need to parade bin Laden’s sorry ass for all to see and then blow his shit-for-brains out of his skull after a trial in a undisclosed place. **Anyone who tries to take hostages in order to free him should meet with a no-negotiations response and then be hounded mercilessly and blitzed by our best warriors**. This is no-holds-barred and an example must be made of this turd burgular for the entire world to see, Muslims and non Muslims alike. Sorry for the foul language folks. This is probably the first time I have ever used such harsh words outside of the pit, but I refuse to pretty up my absolute hatred for this shit bag of a pustule. Find him, convict him and kill him. Sooner preferrably than later. Kill all of those around him to prevent their interference with his apprehension but definitely take the bastard alive. I would personally make an exception about the torture of individuals in this case but it most likely better if we do not. I cannot help but think that the information we might get out of him could save many, many lives. That is a decision which awaits whatever agency captures this monstrous asshole. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/osama-bin-ladin-dead-or-alive/93598.md?page=2)