# Oscars 2017 thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 27, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905 "2017-02-27T01:12:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/281 "2017-03-01T18:59:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The funny thing is that I just didn’t feel like “Moonlight” was a message movie. I agree with you, for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/282 "2017-03-01T21:49:44Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > [Quote=RickJay] > The funny thing is that I just didn’t feel like “Moonlight” was a message movie. I agree with you, for the most part. [/QUOTE] Exactly. “Message movie” implies that the prime directive of the film is to demonstrate some kind of historical or institutional injustice, with a protagonist usually fighting an oppressive or unfair system (society, the courts, the military, etc.). It’s typically posited as an underdog film and has an agenda that’s geared towards raising awareness or highlighting a little-known cause, struggle, or incident. **Hidden Figures** would be considered a message movie, because it’s clearly about African-American women fighting to get recognized in an overwhelmingly white male world. **Hacksaw Ridge** would be considered a message movie because a large chunk of the film is devoted to a man fighting for his right to practice his religion in the face of institutional shaming and resistance. Even **Fences** could be considered a message movie because it explicitly addresses the toll that poverty and racial exclusion have on individuals and the opportunities they are deprived from enjoying (even if the targets of that struggle are less specific than the other two examples). And yes, even **Hell or High Water** can be construed as a crime drama with a message undercurrent because the bad guys are motivated to rob banks because of a clearly-articulated economic reason that has very real-world, contemporary resonance, one that is discussed in detail throughout the film. **Moonlight** doesn’t really fit into this mold. It’s a far more intimate, character-driven film. It’s honest about the reality of drug addiction, but is no more a message movie in that regard than _Trainspotting_ is. Its protagonist is black but is no more a message movie in that regard than _How Stella Got Her Groove Back_. Its protagonist is also struggling with his sexuality and coming out, but is no more a message movie than _My Beautiful Laundrette_. Just because a film’s focus is to give voice to one (or more) type of worldview or perspective that’s usually underrepresented in the media landscape doesn’t mean that it’s automatically a “message” movie. To claim as much is to imply that only white/straight/male culture is a standard type of story and that anything outside that world is automatically trying to “push” or “endorse” something. Chiron may encounter prejudice (the film wouldn’t have been honest to ignore this aspect), but the film is not _about_ that. It’s about him coming to terms with himself, not fighting some larger battle or representing some larger cause. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/283 "2017-03-01T22:26:30Z")
Excellent post, MM. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/284 "2017-03-01T22:39:02Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > And yes, even **Hell or High Water** can be construed as a crime drama with a message undercurrent because the bad guys are motivated to rob banks because of a clearly-articulated economic reason that has very real-world, contemporary resonance, one that is discussed in detail throughout the film. To me, this simply doesn’t work. It’s too broad to say that if a movie has some sort of contemporary resonance that it becomes a message movie. That seems to suggest that having a context makes something a message. For me, recent message movies are “Hidden Figures” and “Zootopia.” I might include “Arrival.” I wouldn’t include HoHW. Why they are doing what they are doing is just the plot device for me, not the point of the story. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/285 "2017-03-01T22:48:42Z")
**MM** , interesting! The gay black activists who are promoting the movie on Twitter (I posted an example) are thus doing it a disservice in a way. On HoHW I am absolutely convinced that the screenwriter had an Occupy Wall Street type axe to grind. I will see if I can find some evidence to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/286 "2017-03-01T22:57:11Z")
Check out the _Guardian’s_ headline for their review: > **[Hell Or High Water review – sharp western for the Occupy generation](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/sep/11/hell-or-high-water-review)** > > Jeff Bridges shares top billing with the Texas landscape in a heist thriller shot through with acidic humour Also, did you notice the graffiti on the wall in the opening shot of the film? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/287 "2017-03-01T23:03:32Z")
It’s been months since I saw the film, so please remind what the graffiti says. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/288 "2017-03-01T23:48:49Z")
The AP is reporting that the two accountants involved in the Best Picture fiasco aren’t going to return (to the Academy Awards). ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/289 "2017-03-02T01:38:51Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **MM** , interesting! The gay black activists who are promoting the movie on Twitter (I posted an example) are thus doing it a disservice in a way. I think they’re just celebrating a victory that has enormous symbolic importance. And of course, I think it’s safe to say that most filmgoers don’t frequent films with gay relationships and identity expressed so front-and-center (because Hollywood generally steers clear of that as a film’s primary focus), so it’s definitely going to play as a movie with an “agenda” to some simply because it embraces a subject outside what you see in the cinematic mainstream. > [@](#): > > On HoHW I am absolutely convinced that the screenwriter had an Occupy Wall Street type axe to grind. I will see if I can find some evidence to that effect. It certainly plays that way, doesn’t it? Because the subject of a callous and predatory financial system isn’t just established as a motivation for the characters and then dropped–they return back to the subject several times. So while it’s not the same as a conventional “message movie”, I think it’s still clearly trying to assert some political points (wrapped in genre trappings). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/290 "2017-03-02T02:05:47Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > It certainly plays that way, doesn’t it? Because the subject of a callous and predatory financial system isn’t just established as a motivation for the characters and then dropped–they return back to the subject several times. So while it’s not the same as a conventional “message movie”, I think it’s still clearly trying to assert some political points (wrapped in genre trappings). I sure thought it played that way! But apparently some disagree. But yeah, the only real mustache-twirlers in the film are bank managers. And there’s certainly no one who pipes up for balance: “Well, I for one am glad these banking services are available even in rural areas” or “the loan on my ranch worked out well: we wouldn’t have been able to expand without it”, etc. They are shown to be ruthless predators out to trick salt of the earth folks into going into foreclosure. Even rave reviews acknowledge the strong political message. [For example:](https://medium.com/@nicklaskin/movie-review-high-crimes-and-low-lives-in-hell-or-high-water-8baed85acb8#.x9ffwmdgg) > [@](#): > > The movie’s closing scenes drive this political underpinning home almost a bit too overtly, but the film held me in such a vise-like grip for the entirety of its runtime that those final, slightly on-the-nose touches don’t detract too much from the final product. [Here’s another,](https://www.filminquiry.com/hell-or-high-water-2016-review/) from a site that named this their “movie of the year”: > [@](#): > > As the Rangers stake out one the bank branches, Gil Birmingham looks around the no horse town and says, “150 years ago this was my ancestors’ land… til the grandparents of these folks took it, and now it’s been taken from them. Except it ain’t no army doin’ it. It’s those sons of bitches right there.” Birmingham sticks an accusatory finger out at the bank. And there was lots more along these lines. I really have trouble understanding how anyone could watch this movie and not perceive a strong, specific, laser-focused political/economic message, even if it’s one you agree with. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It’s been months since I saw the film, so please remind what the graffiti says. “Three tours in Iraq and still no bailouts for people like us.” Which, that whole narrative about a “bailout” really irks me. :smack: The vast majority of people believe TARP \*gave \*money to the banks that was not repaid. In fact, it was not only repaid in full, taxpayers made a profit on it! And I suspect there are a great number of loan programs someone with three tours in Iraq would be eligible for. (In case anyone is wondering: neither I nor anyone in my family or even close friends works on Wall Street or the banking industry. I just hate seeing a widespread inaccuracy like this flourish.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/291 "2017-03-02T02:48:35Z")
Like I said, we have different meanings for “message movies.” For me, a “message movie” isn’t about the context the people in the film are living in, it’s about what you are supposed to take away from it. And nothing in that film gave me a takeaway message at all. They gave the brothers a plausible, semi-sympathetic\* motive. It could have been something else. Compare HoHW to “Hidden Figures.” That is a quintessential message movie. Everything is working together to give one unified message, that these were people who shouldn’t have been hidden but should have been in the limelight. “Zootopia”: rejection of prejudice and respect for differences “Arrival”: not letting fear control us HoHW: banks are evil? - Heck, I don’t remember all the ins and outs, but I wasn’t even sure why a bank that offered a reverse mortgage is supposed to be evil in the first place. But I think we’re already cluttering up this thread with too much in the way of potential spoilers, so I think it’s best not to get into details. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/292 "2017-03-02T03:00:06Z")
I agree: we should use spoiler tags if we talk about the plot. I can see someone having a very strict definition of “message movie” and thereby excluding _HoHW_, along with many other movies (and only admitting the most undeniable cases like _Wall-E_ or _Fruitvale Station_). What I can’t see is classifying \*Arrival \*and \*Zootopia \*as message movies, but drawing the line at \*HoHW \*(I haven’t seen _Hidden Figures_). I consider _HoHW_ the \*most \*blatantly axe-grinding of the three. **MovieMogul** , do you agree? ETA: If the “banks are bad, mmkay?” deal was just to establish motive, they wouldn’t have had the guys in the diner complaining about the banks, they wouldn’t have had the Texas Ranger (partner of Jeff Bridges) deliver that hamhanded line I quoted above, they wouldn’t have had the front and center graffiti in the opening shot of the movie. None of those was needed to establish motive and get the plot rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/293 "2017-03-02T08:12:54Z")
I just saw **Moonlight** - a Netflix DVD. Very much a meh movie. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/294 "2017-03-02T11:28:29Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The AP is reporting that the two accountants involved in the Best Picture fiasco aren’t going to return (to the Academy Awards). I wonder why the woman would be included when it was the guy who was distracted when he ogled Emma Stone and blew his Just One Job. Maybe she was expected to react sooner to the mishap? Otherwise seems a bit much. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/295 "2017-03-02T12:51:49Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Maybe she was expected to react sooner to the mishap? This is exactly why. They memorize all of the winners, so she knew it was a mistake. According to the stage manager, she didn’t even react. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/296 "2017-03-02T15:54:53Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > This is exactly why. They memorize all of the winners, so she knew it was a mistake. According to the stage manager, she didn’t even react. Maybe PWC did not have a procedure to handle this situation, and maybe she wasn’t trained to that procedure and that’s why she didn’t react? Do we know if PWC has a procedure for what if the wrong card is read or the wrong winner is announced? I would think they would. ETA: And again, _Moonlight_ was not Best Picture worthy, IMO. I lost 2 hours from my life last night watching that roll-eyes, give-me-a-break, waste-of-time movie. I know people liked the movie but does anyone else think it wasn’t a Best Picture? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/297 "2017-03-02T16:02:21Z")
The obvious procedure is the accountant needs to step up as soon as the incorrect name is called. That’s why they have the list of winners memorized. (And certainly they should be able to remember the name of the Best Picture winner.) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/298 "2017-03-02T17:16:57Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Beatty presented her with the card. Maybe in his mind he was showing it to her in a, “Does this look off to you?” kind of way but if that was in his mind he certainly didn’t communicate it clearly. > > If I was in Dunaway’s place, I’d have thought his pause was a matter of “Oh, maybe I should let Faye read it” and that he was presenting the card to allow the honor of reading it. The card apparently said “La La Land” as well as Stone’s name. I can’t really blame Dunaway. If Beatty had indeed suspected something was off, it was on him to make a call rather than deferring to someone who may or may not notice the possible error that he himself was already suspicious of. > > That said… I don’t really blame Beatty either. He was put in a bad position. > I’m just saying that the fact that Dunaway was the one to actually read it in no way makes her more responsible for the error than Beatty. Obviously in retrospect Beatty should have called a halt and asked for clarification from the back. What I think may have helped the screwup along is that _La La Land_ was widely expected to win Best Picture – it had all the signs: most nominations, and Best Director winner, not to mention that Stone had just walked off with Best Actress. It was on a roll, and getting a card for that movie but marked with the wrong category probably seemed like just an odd technicality. I know that when I heard _La La Land_ announced, I just thought “so damned predictable”. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The AP is reporting that the two accountants involved in the Best Picture fiasco aren’t going to return (to the Academy Awards). If that’s the worst that happens to them and PwC then they got off easy. Not only was it gross carelessness in a trivially simple matter, but failing to correct it immediately and letting it get out of hand was just inexcusable. I still haven’t seen an explanation for what the hell they were doing back there all that time. Were they both asleep? It’s like acting out the definition of “incompetence”. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/299 "2017-03-02T17:19:50Z")
Bill Simmons released a podcast yesterday with Jimmy Kimmel that is well worth a listen for anybody interested in this. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905/300 "2017-03-02T17:30:30Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The obvious procedure is the accountant needs to step up as soon as the incorrect name is called. That’s why they have the list of winners memorized. (And certainly they should be able to remember the name of the Best Picture winner.) Yes, but your comment could also be called Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Put yourself in the agent’s shoes. What if the agents’ boss was nearby, then the agent might think it’s the boss’s responsibility to do that, not their’s. If PWC did have a procedure, it was not put into play soon enough to minimize the embarrassment to the _La La Land_ team and others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oscars-2017-thread/780905.md?page=16)