# Oslo dopers, check in please. Is everyone safe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984 "2011-07-22T14:03:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/141 "2011-07-23T15:27:38Z")
Absolutely sickening. I hoped the 20-25 bodies reported yesterday was an exaggeration and now… ---
**Author:** ![malm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@malm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/142 "2011-07-23T15:36:41Z")
the man is clearly delusional though, he tried to get someone to start an extremely “conservative” newspaper and expected to get 200 000 readers because “there are 15 liberal/socialist/cultural/multikulti newspapers, a conservative paper MUST be a success.” but that has nothing to do with “killing lots of people and getting locked up” grade crazy ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/143 "2011-07-23T15:37:42Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Usually, it means neo-Nazi, racist fascism with a special hate against Muslims and other brown-skinned immigrants, and also a hate against the political left including the Labor party (currently in the Government). > > The assumed perpetrator fits all of this. > > It’s hard to call anything “a good thing” on a day like this, but it was a good thing that the police were able to capture the guy alive. We’ll get some more answers that way. The alleged killer couldn’t possibly have been a neo-Nazi: He described himself repeatedly as “pro-Israel” (as well as “pro-gay,” for that matter). Not a Nazi. You’re right about the other stuff though: Hated Muslims, hated immigrants, hated the political left. Just terrible, this. I’ve been calling friends in Oslo all day. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/144 "2011-07-23T15:47:01Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Well, yeah. It’s the “gunning down 90 teenagers in cold blood” part that’s making us question his sanity. Toxic ideologies can allow sane individuals to rationalize monstrous acts. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/145 "2011-07-23T15:48:52Z")
The guy might seem “chillingly rational”, but just because he’s not babbling or incoherent, that doesn’t mean he’s not insane. Someone who is capable of this kind of thing must surely be totally lacking in empathy, just for starters. Witnesses describe him as calmly walking around the island, in no hurry, picking people off. There is such a thing as \*too \*rational, too lacking in emotion - in a way, that’s what psychopathy is. Of course, even psycopaths don’t usually go on killing sprees. As mentioned earlier, mass murderers are rarely caught alive - now that we have one, maybe we can get some answers. In any case, I don’t see this guy ever getting out into the sunlight again. Technically the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, but for the perpetrator of the world’s worst ever mass shooting? Come on. As mentioned, we have two types of confinement we can potentially slap him with, and if we need a third one, we’ll create it. He’ll stay locked up. I think that’s pretty much a foregone conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/146 "2011-07-23T15:49:04Z")
When we left home this morning, the death toll was at 17. When we came home this evening, it was up to 92. Damn. Any more word on this second person arrested or reports of a second gunman? ---
**Author:** ![malm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@malm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/147 "2011-07-23T16:01:03Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > The alleged killer couldn’t possibly have been a neo-Nazi: He described himself repeatedly as “pro-Israel” (as well as “pro-gay,” for that matter). Not a Nazi. > > You’re right about the other stuff though: Hated Muslims, hated immigrants, hated the political left. Not some sort of Nazi- I believe he could be called something like ethnicity-isolationist fascist-libertarian-Christian if that makes any sort of sense. he wants cultures to remain (and return to) where they “belong” is for forced economic and social conservatism and wants to outlaw political opinions left of the Norwegian right. he claims to be a follower of the Vienna school of thought, I dont know much about that. sounds roughly libertarian he talks about marxists infiltrating newspapers and other NGOs and about reclaiming control of 30 NGOs. He wants Norway to collectively turn to Catholicism because protestantism is too soft. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/148 "2011-07-23T16:01:35Z")
[QUOTE=Martian Bigfoot] As mentioned, we have two types of confinement we can potentially slap him with, and if we need a third one, we’ll create it. [/QUOTE] If a third type of punishment (what exactly? “Special time for bad people”?) were created now, it could not be applied retroactively. It is now that our convictions as a free society are tested. If we allow this man to change us, he will have won. We as a people decided that 21 years is the most we can give, no matter what the crime. That is still true today, and that is still the right and proper way, not matter what this man did. We are better than this. We are a democracy, we are a free people. We will not allow this person to sacrifice himself by changing us. “We will not be bombed to silence, we will not be shot to silence.” ---
**Author:** ![Tracyfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f14d63/32.png) [@Tracyfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracyfish)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/149 "2011-07-23T16:02:41Z")
This is the kind of thing you might read in a novel but don’t expect to happen in real life because it’s so crazy. Reading the death toll this moring was bad enough but the details of his plan, like telling the kids they were safe because the gunman had been caught and then shooting them, are horrifying. I don’t know what to say except my thoughts are with everyone in Norway. ---
**Author:** ![malm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@malm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/150 "2011-07-23T16:06:32Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > If a third type of punishment (what exactly? “Special time for bad people”?) were created now, it could not be applied retroactively. > > It is now that our convictions as a free society are tested. If we allow this man to change us, he will have won. We as a people decided that 21 years is the most we can give, no matter what the crime. That is still true today, and that is still the right and proper way, not matter what this man did. > > We are better than this. We are a democracy, we are a free people. We will not allow this person to sacrifice himself by changing us. > > “We will not be bombed to silence, we will not be shot to silence.” quoted for truth ---
**Author:** ![gardentraveler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gardentraveler/32/3576_2.png) [@gardentraveler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gardentraveler)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/151 "2011-07-23T16:07:34Z")
> [@Tracyfish](#): > > This is the kind of thing you might read in a novel but don’t expect to happen in real life because it’s so crazy. Reading the death toll this moring was bad enough but the details of his plan, like telling the kids they were safe because the gunman had been caught and then shooting them, are horrifying. I don’t know what to say except my thoughts are with everyone in Norway. This is exactly how I’ve been feeling. ---
**Author:** ![malm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@malm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/152 "2011-07-23T16:08:41Z")
shamelessly stolen from a guy on facebook: “preventive detention” is the best legal translation, I believe. The best way I’ve heard to explain the difference between the Norwegian and US ways of determining prison-terms is that in Norway, you serve time for all your crimes concurrently, rather than in serial. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/153 "2011-07-23T16:11:40Z")
The perpetrator of these acts should, in my opinion, never see the outside of prison walls once he is convicted. I would have him grow old and die in prison. But I am not Norwegian. Whatever penalty is applied must be decided by the Norwegian people and their lawmakers. If it’s 21 years, then that’s what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/154 "2011-07-23T16:12:15Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > If a third type of punishment (what exactly? “Special time for bad people”?) were created now, it could not be applied retroactively. > > It is now that our convictions as a free society are tested. If we allow this man to change us, he will have won. We as a people decided that 21 years is the most we can give, no matter what the crime. That is still true today, and that is still the right and proper way, not matter what this man did. > > We are better than this. We are a democracy, we are a free people. We will not allow this person to sacrifice himself by changing us. > > “We will not be bombed to silence, we will not be shot to silence.” Hear, hear. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/155 "2011-07-23T16:17:36Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > AUF just declared that they _will_ be going back to the same island next year and every year. > > The Prime Minister said (when international terrorism was still suspected): > > “We will fight back with _more_ democracy, by becoming an _even more_ open society. We will not be bombed to silence, we will not be shot to silence.”\ Good for him. > [@Septima](#): > > No, fortunately. Maximum punishment is 21 yrs. > > Although he may get something called “forvaring” after that (“storage?”), which means that he stays in for as long as he is considered a threat. Although longer than 10 years requires a new trial at that time. > [@Septima](#): > > No. 21 years total. That’s it. > > I think these are two different things - we have “indefinite custody” for the mentally unfit as well. I don’t think that applies here though - he seems chillingly rational. > > Then there is separate sort of custody, which is used for people who are not mentally unfit, but are considered an active threat to their fellow citizens. It’s a relatively new thing, I think it was passed into law not much more then five years ago. Till now, it’s only been used on people who were actively making death threats while in jail, or on very violent criminals who committed new violent crimes on fellow inmates shortly before release. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > The guy might seem “chillingly rational”, but just because he’s not babbling or incoherent, that doesn’t mean he’s not insane. Someone who is capable of this kind of thing must surely be totally lacking in empathy, just for starters. Witnesses describe him as calmly walking around the island, in no hurry, picking people off. There is such a thing as \*too \*rational, too lacking in emotion - in a way, that’s what psychopathy is. Of course, even psycopaths don’t usually go on killing sprees. > > As mentioned earlier, mass murderers are rarely caught alive - now that we have one, maybe we can get some answers. > > In any case, I don’t see this guy ever getting out into the sunlight again. Technically the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, but for the perpetrator of the world’s worst ever mass shooting? Come on. As mentioned, we have two types of confinement we can potentially slap him with, and if we need a third one, we’ll create it. He’ll stay locked up. I think that’s pretty much a foregone conclusion. Canada, UK and Wales have an option of designating someone a Dangerous Offender where the criminal is remanded indefinitely - I’m guessing something like that will be applied to him. If nothing else, his life is over the minute he leaves custody, I would guess. A quote from Breivik’s twitter account - > [@](#): > > One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests. That’s fitting with what we speculate about him. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/156 "2011-07-23T16:22:53Z")
> [@](#): > > he claims to be a follower of the Vienna school of thought, I dont know much about that. sounds roughly libertarian Isn’t that the whole laissez-faire Austrian school of economics. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/157 "2011-07-23T16:42:48Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > \ > A quote from Breivik’s twitter account - That’s fitting with what we speculate about him. And I see that the quote is taken from John Stuart Mill - “One person with a belief is equal to ninety-nine who have only interests.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/158 "2011-07-23T16:45:51Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > If a third type of punishment (what exactly? “Special time for bad people”?) were created now, it could not be applied retroactively. > > It is now that our convictions as a free society are tested. If we allow this man to change us, he will have won. We as a people decided that 21 years is the most we can give, no matter what the crime. That is still true today, and that is still the right and proper way, not matter what this man did. > > We are better than this. We are a democracy, we are a free people. We will not allow this person to sacrifice himself by changing us. > > “We will not be bombed to silence, we will not be shot to silence.” If you don’t allow his actions to change you then he has won. concurrently serving sentences does not make sense. I can understand the idea of proportional intent (drunk driver kills 5 people in a car) but in this case he willful committed multiple, independent, acts of murder. A law without proportion makes allowances for and encourages leverage. If this isn’t a learning experience then another will present itself. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/159 "2011-07-23T16:49:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you don’t allow his actions to change you then he has won. What a stupid thing to say. There is no “winning” here. He did an awful thing, and now everyone has to cope with the aftermath. Going around blatting about how this is a “learning experience” is just…just stop. Stop. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984/160 "2011-07-23T16:57:04Z")
I keep reading news stories, hoping to find that the death toll has been corrected to something “reasonable”. This is so awful I can’t imagine. My prayers are with Norway. I admire the bravery of the Norwegian people in holding to their love of democracy and the rule of law, and in refusing to bow down to terrorists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oslo-dopers-check-in-please-is-everyone-safe/589984.md?page=9)