# Other famous people who may not have existed **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509 "2016-07-21T17:41:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/61 "2016-07-22T22:14:39Z")
Socrates is the perfect example here. Most of what we know about him comes from Plato, who also made up Atlantis. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/62 "2016-07-22T22:17:05Z")
I always thought the story of Lady Godiva was cool, but there’s no real evidence of anyone like her making that famous ride ever existing (i.e., there were Lady Godivas, but none are confirmed to have rode nude through town to save her tenants from taxation). ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/63 "2016-07-22T22:45:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Socrates is the perfect example here. > > Most of what we know about him comes from Plato, who also made up Atlantis. There’s also Xenophon and Aristophanes, and he’s mentioned by Aristotle. Aristophanes is the clincher. There’s no way Plato and Aristophanes would get together and make up a Socrates from angles that different. He was apparently also made fun of by other [comic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callias_(comic_poet)) [poets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameipsias). Although it’s an open question to what extent Plato’s Socrates resembles the historical Socrates. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/64 "2016-07-23T00:22:55Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Sure, if it makes you feel better, you can reduce the biography of a legendary figure to the most unremarkable and mundane elements. But then you’re left with the question of why someone would start telling fantastical stories about someone who was entirely mundane and unremarkable. Being left with more questions is one of the great things about science. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/65 "2016-07-23T03:25:57Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Being left with more questions is one of the great things about science. 😃 I wonder if there are people who think that Anthony Standen was fictitious. ---
**Author:** ![Harvey\_The\_Heavy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Harvey\_The\_Heavy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harvey_The_Heavy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/66 "2016-07-23T05:35:10Z")
For a relatively recent example, there’s [John Frum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum), who’s pretty much the Jesus of various cargo cults in the Pacific archipelago of Vanuatu. He was most certainly a composite of the various American airmen that the natives encountered around WWII (there’s some disagreement on whether he’s black or white), and is probably influenced by earlier legends. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/67 "2016-07-23T09:36:35Z")
> [@JohnGalt](#): > > Of course he existed! Babe too! There’s lots of statues of him here in Minnesota! > > It broke my sixth-grader heart to look up Paul Bunyan in the encyclopedia. Even my elderly teacher that year thought he was real and that’s why she had me look it up. Water-filled footprints from both of them are all over Minnesota! Over ten thousand of them! ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/68 "2016-07-23T14:24:50Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Water-filled footprints from both of them are all over Minnesota! Over ten thousand of them! Again, ask Tom Smothers. He said Paul Bunyan had a big blue puma. A horny puma. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/69 "2016-07-23T14:43:50Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Of course, I think the Exodus story is based on the historical escape of some groups of slaves from Egypt, who eventually were integrated into a Canaanite culture. If this is true, it is highly embellished. The Egyptians themselves were obsessive bureaucrats and record keepers. Yet, they do not record having large numbers of Hebrew slaves, nor any massive exodus that would fit the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/70 "2016-07-23T15:00:49Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > If this is true, it is highly embellished. The Egyptians themselves were obsessive bureaucrats and record keepers. Yet, they do not record having large numbers of Hebrew slaves, nor any massive exodus that would fit the narrative. I’m not surprised, considering that Egyptian records were always positive; anything that would reflect negatively on the Pharaoh or Egyptian gods would not be mentioned at all in their historical records. The Nazis and the Soviets didn’t keep records of bad news, either. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/71 "2016-07-23T15:47:21Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I’m not surprised, considering that Egyptian records were always positive; anything that would reflect negatively on the Pharaoh or Egyptian gods would not be mentioned at all in their historical records. Not true. It wouldn’t be carved on a temple or tomb wall, since those were religious inscriptions to the glory of the god/pharaoh, nor on a commemorative stele, since those were the glory of pharoah-as-general, but there are many other categories of Egyptian record. I’d have to poke around but there are definitely “bad news”/negative ones. > [@](#): > > The Nazis and the Soviets didn’t keep records of bad news, either. Depending on which end of the news you were on. The records from the death camps are meticulously kept. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/72 "2016-07-23T16:35:48Z")
My source is \*The World History of the Jewish People, \* 1964, Vol. I, pp. 338, 339: “Egyptian records were always positive, emphasizing the successes of the Pharaoh or god, whereas failures and defeats are never mentioned, except in some context of the distant past.”-- Egyptologist J. A. Wilson. As for the Nazis, I would be interested to know how you gained access to any of their records. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/73 "2016-07-23T21:22:30Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > If this is true, it is highly embellished. The Egyptians themselves were obsessive bureaucrats and record keepers. Yet, they do not record having large numbers of Hebrew slaves, nor any massive exodus that would fit the narrative. There’s at least one record of hebrew slaves and a battle or two. The issue is that of course the Egyptians didnt call them “Hebrews”\* per se\*. They often used the terms \*Habiru \*and _Apiru_ which doesn’t really differentiate between several related people from that area. However it’s a definite fact that Egypt took slaves from wars and warred in that area. So, claiming that for some reason they took every other people from that area as slaves but\* not \*the Hebrews would need some rigorous proof. > **[Merneptah Stele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele)** > > The Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele or the Victory Stele of Merneptah, is an inscription by Merneptah, a pharaoh in ancient Egypt who reigned from 1213 to 1203 BCE. Discovered by Flinders Petrie at Thebes in 1896, it is now housed at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. > The text is largely an account of Merneptah's victory over the ancient Libyans and their allies, but the last three of the 28 lines deal with a separate campaign in Canaan, then part of Egypt's imperial possessions. It i... > **[ʿApiru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru)** > > ʿApiru (Ugaritic: 𐎓𐎔𐎗𐎎, romanized: ʿPRM, Ancient Egyptian: 𓂝𓊪𓂋𓅱𓀀𓏥, romanized: ꜥprw), also known in the Akkadian version Ḫabiru (sometimes written Habiru, Ḫapiru or Hapiru; Akkadian: 𒄩𒁉𒊒, ḫa-bi-ru or \*ʿaperu) is a term used in 2nd-millennium BCE texts throughout the Fertile Crescent for a social status of people who were variously described as rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, bowmen, servants, slaves, and laborers. > The term was first discovered in its Akkadian version "ḫa-bi-ru" or "ḫa-pi-... of course, the Exodus could not have occurred \* as the OT says.\* But if a few tens of thousands made a break for it, and brought back to their goatherd relatives "civilization "and modern war, there’s no objections and it fits the general known facts. It’s true the Israelites seems to have taken that area over fairly rapidly. Not quite as rapidly as the OT says, but pretty fast. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/74 "2016-07-23T21:28:46Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Not true. It wouldn’t be carved on a temple or tomb wall, since those were religious inscriptions to the glory of the god/pharaoh, nor on a commemorative stele, since those were the glory of pharoah-as-general, but there are many other categories of Egyptian record. I’d have to poke around but there are definitely “bad news”/negative ones. > Depending on which end of the news you were on. The records from the death camps are meticulously kept. Which to _them_ wasnt “bad news”. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/75 "2016-07-23T23:15:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s at least one record of hebrew slaves and a battle or two. The issue is that of course the Egyptians didnt call them “Hebrews”\* per se\*. They often used the terms \*Habiru \*and _Apiru_ which doesn’t really differentiate between several related people from that area. > > However it’s a definite fact that Egypt took slaves from wars and warred in that area. So, claiming that for some reason they took every other people from that area as slaves but\* not \*the Hebrews would need some rigorous proof. > [Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele) > [ʿApiru - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru) > > of course, the Exodus could not have occurred \* as the OT says.\* But if a few tens of thousands made a break for it, and brought back to their goatherd relatives "civilization "and modern war, there’s no objections and it fits the general known facts. It’s true the Israelites seems to have taken that area over fairly rapidly. Not quite as rapidly as the OT says, but pretty fast. Oh, of course it couldn’t. Because you said so. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/76 "2016-07-24T00:04:15Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > If this is true, it is highly embellished. The Egyptians themselves were obsessive bureaucrats and record keepers. Yet, they do not record having large numbers of Hebrew slaves, nor any massive exodus that would fit the narrative. Exactly. Those are extraordinary elements of the Exodus, which I consider are unlikely to be historical. But it’s unremarkable that Egyptians had slaves from Canaan. And mundane that a few families of slaves escaped back to their ancestral lands. ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/77 "2016-07-24T06:38:28Z")
Ned Ludd, or Ludlam, or Ludnam, or Laudanum (ok, I made that last one up), who inspired the Luddites. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/78 "2016-07-24T13:58:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You don’t have to go way back in time. In another thread we talked about [John Henry,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_(folklore)) the steel driving man who may have won a contest with a steam drill (hammer). There may have been such a man, even with that name, and there may have been such a contest, but there’s no solid evidence to back it up. I though John Henry was just another character in the Paul Bunyan Olde Tymie Power Hour show? > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > As for the Nazis, I would be interested to know how you gained access to any of their records. Take a tour of Auschwitz if you happen to visit Poland. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/79 "2016-07-24T14:41:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I though John Henry was just another character in the Paul Bunyan Olde Tymie Power Hour show? > > Take a tour of Auschwitz if you happen to visit Poland. This presupposes the possibility that I could see something in more detail than was shown in the documentary films I saw in high school or in the Twilight Zone episode “Death’s Head Revisited.” ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509/80 "2016-07-24T17:00:00Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > This presupposes the possibility that I could see something in more detail than was shown in the documentary films I saw in high school or in the Twilight Zone episode “Death’s Head Revisited.” ☹ Are you suggesting that because you haven’t personally bothered to look up the primary sources that they don’t exist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-famous-people-who-may-not-have-existed/760509.md?page=5)