# Other Industry Collapses? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 12, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959 "2008-12-12T23:59:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/1 "2008-12-12T23:59:21Z")
In one of the eighty million threads going on at the moment about the bailout and/or collapse of the automotive industry someone suggested that this was a bit of an unprecedented situation in US history. I’m not entirely certain about that. There are a _number_ of similarities between what’s happening now and the death of the independent car makers in the 1950s (I’m going to be starting a thread on the specifics of Studebaker’s death later on), and I would suspect that there are probably some parallels in the decline of the textile, watch making, and electronics industry in the US, but I’m not familiar with those areas, so I don’t know. I’m assuming that there’s probably a few folks here who know about such things and might be willing to shed some light on the matter. I’d say that industry collapses in other countries would be helpful as well. Anybody have some thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/2 "2008-12-13T00:25:05Z")
How about the newspapers? The Chicago TRIBUNE has filed for banyruptcy, the NYTIMES is morgtgaging its NYC headquarters, the BOSTON GLOBE is almost bankrupt and a score of other papers are in very bad shape. I give print newspapers 3-5 years at most-the interner will finish them. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/3 "2008-12-13T00:27:15Z")
I think we need a Collapsing Industry. It’d be going great right now. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/4 "2008-12-13T00:28:08Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > I think we need a Collapsing Industry. It’d be going great right now. My dad made a killing in that industry. It’s called bankruptcy law. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/5 "2008-12-13T00:31:17Z")
We still need cars. If GM, Ford, Chrysler go bust, who’s going to build 'em? Toyota, Nissan \* Volkswagen? Then they will be building new plants, refurbishing old ones and hiring massive amounts of workers. Will cars be cheaper or more expensive? Hard to tell, but there will be cars made. Only if our need for cars goes away will the production of cars go away. I don’t see that happening soon. The money’s still there. Only the pockets will change. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/6 "2008-12-13T00:41:18Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > We still need cars. If GM, Ford, Chrysler go bust, who’s going to build 'em? > > Toyota, Nissan \* Volkswagen? Then they will be building new plants, refurbishing old ones and hiring massive amounts of workers. Will cars be cheaper or more expensive? Hard to tell, but there will be cars made. > > Only if our need for cars goes away will the production of cars go away. I don’t see that happening soon. > > The money’s still there. Only the pockets will change. More than just the pockets will change. Do you honestly think that a foreign car maker will want a plant in Michigan? Sure, they’ll have a large pool of experienced autoworkers to draw from, but they’ll be _union_ autoworkers in a state with union _friendly_ laws. It’ll be much easier to continue to open plants in states whcih are heavily **non** -union, like they’re doing now. So even if they _do_ decide to build more plants here, there’s likely to be a much larger shift away from places like Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/7 "2008-12-13T00:47:09Z")
Construction ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/8 "2008-12-13T02:42:32Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > More than just the pockets will change. Do you honestly think that a foreign car maker will want a plant in Michigan? Sure, they’ll have a large pool of experienced autoworkers to draw from, but they’ll be _union_ autoworkers in a state with union _friendly_ laws. It’ll be much easier to continue to open plants in states whcih are heavily **non** -union, like they’re doing now. So even if they _do_ decide to build more plants here, there’s likely to be a much larger shift away from places like Michigan. Good. Michigan deserves it. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/9 "2008-12-13T04:22:31Z")
The steel industry. Very many parallels to the auto industry as a matter of fact. It was pretty much dead for 20 years, but is now making a recovery. An entirely different business model from the old industry, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/10 "2008-12-13T04:28:15Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Good. Michigan deserves it. Thanks a lot. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/11 "2008-12-13T14:26:31Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > I think we need a Collapsing Industry. It’d be going great right now. [Simpsons] “Yes, but it’s a golden age for the repo business. One that will never end.” [/Simpsons] ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/12 "2008-12-13T14:55:44Z")
I believe that there are certain industries that a country must maintain as a matter of national security. What would have happened in WWII if we didn’t have an industrial infrastructure to shift over to production of tanks, planes, munitions, etc.? Many countries regularly subsidize certain industries partly for this reason. We don’t want to find ourselves depending on Chinese munitions if, God forbid, we ever find ourselves in a war with China. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/13 "2008-12-13T15:11:38Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Good. Michigan deserves it. The families that’ll be put out into the icy streets to beg thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/14 "2008-12-13T15:14:49Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > How about the newspapers? The Chicago TRIBUNE has filed for banyruptcy, the NYTIMES is morgtgaging its NYC headquarters, the BOSTON GLOBE is almost bankrupt and a score of other papers are in very bad shape. How many thousands of news websites that are profitable are there out there? If huge, established newspapers can’t compete with college kids in their basements, I’m not sure how much sympathy I should have for them. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/15 "2008-12-13T15:18:55Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Do you honestly think that a foreign car maker will want a plant in Michigan? Maybe they will, since as you pointed out, there is a large pool of autoworkers there. It would be pretty stupid of unions not to adjust if that’s what it takes to provide their members with jobs. OTOH, do you honestly think that those workers will stay in Michigan just to bitch about it if there are jobs to be had elsewhere? > [@davidm](#): > > I believe that there are certain industries that a country must maintain as a matter of national security. At what price? Would you give 50% of your income to assure that? 20%? 10%? And what assurance would you have, in this nuclear age, that the first strike of a nuclear madman wouldn’t wipe out all that industry that you preserved at such a cost? That same argument can be made for ANY industry. What if a war came and we didn’t have milk or cheese produced locally? Or bread? So we subsidize dairies and bakeries. How about the garment workers who might have to produce uniforms for our troops? There are very few industries that can escape that kind of slippery slope logic once you get started. > [@](#): > > We don’t want to find ourselves depending on Chinese munitions if, God forbid, we ever find ourselves in a war with China. And China is the only country in the world that makes munitions? Do you know how many countries and companies would be lining up to sell us arms if we needed them? You’d need an army to keep the line jumpers straight. It’s a highly profitable business worldwide. > [@kunilou](#): > > The steel industry. Very many parallels to the auto industry as a matter of fact. It was pretty much dead for 20 years, but is now making a recovery. An entirely different business model from the old industry, though. Very good point. Things were allowed to change and adjust with minimal government handouts or help. And from what I hear, the US steel industry is OK now, at no cost to the taxpayers. Imagine what it would be like if steels had been bailed out by the government? We’d still have obsolete plants turning out unwanted products at a cost that wasn’t competitive. To sell worldwide, we’d have to keep subsidizing. > [@The Tao's Revenge](#): > > The families that’ll be put out into the icy streets to beg thank you. My heart goes out to them. If you personally contribute to their help fund, I applaud you. But if you want to pass a law that forces _me_ to contribute, that’s a different thing entirely. Perhaps I want to pass a law that forces you to contribute to _my_ favorite charity, which, obviously, is more important than yours. And that’s the crux of the matter: should help for those who need it be mandatory or voluntary? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/16 "2008-12-13T15:30:56Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe they will, since as you pointed out, there is a large pool of autoworkers there. It would be pretty stupid of unions not to adjust if that’s what it takes to provide their members with jobs. OTOH, do you honestly think that those workers will stay in Michigan just to bitch about it if there are jobs to be had elsewhere? Union membership inspires something like religious fervor in people, I’ve found. They will _not_ agree to give up on the union just to have a job. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/17 "2008-12-13T15:37:12Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > My heart goes out to them. If you personally contribute to their help fund, I applaud you. But if you want to pass a law that forces _me_ to contribute, that’s a different thing entirely. Perhaps I want to pass a law that forces you to contribute to _my_ favorite charity, which, obviously, is more important than yours. And that’s the crux of the matter: should help for those who need it be mandatory or voluntary? I do indeed contribute when I can. The problem here is I also was forced to contribute to bailing out waill street to the tune of 700 billion dollars. Yet when the major industry here needs a little help we’re told screw you by the same two faced politicians that supported the 700 billion dollar bail out. Do you think that’s fair? I understand your concerns but let me ask you this. What do you believe is the basic function of government? I personally believe it has a responsibility to look out for the well being of it’s citizens. Including making sure their basic needs are met. To a large extent the American government does a great job of this, but not in this case. Right now our social safety net is full of holes and many many good people and families can fall through to whatever calamity awaits them. This coupled with an already 10% unemployment rate that will sky rocket, should the big 3 fail, puts them in a very bad place. So to answer your question, yes if it’d mean good hardworking people didn’t have to fear for the future I’d gladly pay forced contributions to your charities. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/18 "2008-12-13T15:57:12Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Union membership inspires something like religious fervor in people, I’ve found. They will _not_ agree to give up on the union just to have a job. Well, then I retract my sympathy and say, Tough Shit, Whiners. You can have your priorities, just don’t ask me to pay for them. > [@The Tao's Revenge](#): > > I do indeed contribute when I can. The problem here is I also was forced to contribute to bailing out waill street to the tune of 700 billion dollars. Yet when the major industry here needs a little help we’re told screw you by the same two faced politicians that supported the 700 billion dollar bail out. Do you think that’s fair? I don’t support government bailouts for ANY industry for exactly the same reasons. It distorts markets and takes from the productive to give to the unproductive. Bad economics all around. > [@](#): > > I understand your concerns but let me ask you this. What do you believe is the basic function of government? [ol][li]To protect the country thru the miltary, and [\*]To protect the people thru police and courts.[/ol]Note that these functions CANNOT be done by private industry. Just about everything else can.[/li][quote] I personally believe it has a responsibility to look out for the well being of it’s citizens. Including making sure their basic needs are met. [/quote] Wouldn’t it be nice if that were possible? But no two people agree on exactly how to do it. Is my well being the same as yours? If I need a big boat for my well being, can I get you to pay for it? Who decides? Some bureaucrat? No matter how you propose to accomplish that task, it all comes down to taking money from one person and giving it to another. And it’s ALL involuntary. If I can force you to contribute your wealth to me by passing a law, I can do it. > [@](#): > > So to answer your question, yes if it’d mean good hardworking people didn’t have to fear for the future I’d gladly pay forced contributions to your charities. No one is stopping you from contributing to them now. But if your wealth is involuntarily taken by someone else for _their_ pet projects, you may have less to contribute to yours. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/19 "2008-12-13T16:22:00Z")
Your text came out all mushed together. Apologies if I messed up for the formatting. > [@Musicat](#): > > I don’t support government bailouts for ANY industry for exactly the same reasons. It distorts markets and takes from the productive to give to the unproductive. Bad economics all around. Well I sympathize with you then as the 700 billion dollar bailout must trouble you alot, but I submit that fair is fair. I had to pay on that 700 billion as did all the workers in Michigan to bail out some rich fat greedy fat cats. Do you think it’s fair we’re now being told screw you on the basic thing that not only puts food on the table, but payed for the table and the roof over it? > [@](#): > > [ol][li]To protect the country thru the miltary, and [\*]To protect the people thru police and courts.[/ol]Note that these functions CANNOT be done by private industry. Just about everything else can.[/li] What about basic services like the fire department, schools, libraries, ect.? > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t it be nice if that were possible? I submit that is possible. My cites are Canada, Norway, and Sweden. > [@](#): > > But no two people agree on exactly how to do it. Is my well being the same as yours? If I need a big boat for my well being, can I get you to pay for it? Who decides? Some bureaucrat? Same way we decided settle our differences about the law should be. Through our democratic republic. It isn’t perfect, as this current mess shows, but it’s served us pretty damn good in the past and it will in the future as we fix this mess and recover. (I hope) > [@](#): > > No matter how you propose to accomplish that task, it all comes down to taking money from one person and giving it to another. And it’s ALL involuntary. If I can force you to contribute your wealth to me by passing a law, I can do it. Yes you can, but still have the hurdle of convince a majority of people it’s a good idea. The government is ultimately answerable to the tax payers because they’re also the voters. We won our independence on the motto of no taxation without representation. In other words if it’s the will of the people to support a cause nationally who is the minority to say no? > [@](#): > > No one is stopping you from contributing to them now. But if your wealth is involuntarily taken by someone else for _their_ pet projects, you may have less to contribute to yours. I’d hope keeping a state of 9 million people out of a crushing depression, or seeing that their basic needs are met through the depression is more then a pet project. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959/20 "2008-12-13T16:29:29Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Well, then I retract my sympathy and say, Tough Shit, Whiners. You can have your priorities, just don’t ask me to pay for them. But you’re going to, one way or the other. It’ll either be bailouts for the industries or unemployment, foodstamps and Medicare for the laid off workers. The _only_ choice you have is for which one you’re going to pay for. [quote] I don’t support government bailouts for ANY industry for exactly the same reasons. It distorts markets and takes from the productive to give to the unproductive. Bad economics all around.[ol][li]To protect the country thru the miltary, and [\*]To protect the people thru police and courts.[/ol]Note that these functions CANNOT be done by private industry.[/li][/quote] Funny, the Bush Administration has had no problem hiring folks like Blackwater to police places like post-Katrina NOLA. They also have more private contractors running around in Iraq than they do soldiers. So at least a couple of those things _can_ be outsourced. You could outsource the courts too, but like has been shown with outsourcing police and military forces, that’s a Really Bad Idea[sup]TM[/sup]. > [@](#): > > Just about everything else can.Wouldn’t it be nice if that were possible? But no two people agree on exactly how to do it. Is my well being the same as yours? If I need a big boat for my well being, can I get you to pay for it? Who decides? Some bureaucrat? We’re already paying for one another’s well being. Even if we take your impossible society where all the government did was handle the police, military, and courts, you’d _still_ be paying for another’s well being, as _that’s_ why we have those things. > [@](#): > > No matter how you propose to accomplish that task, it all comes down to taking money from one person and giving it to another. And it’s ALL involuntary. If I can force you to contribute your wealth to me by passing a law, I can do it. No one is stopping you from contributing to them now. But if your wealth is involuntarily taken by someone else for _their_ pet projects, you may have less to contribute to yours. Ah, yes, the poor, overburdened American upper class, how do they manage to keep buying their mansions, luxury cars, and private jets when the evil government just bleeds them dry. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-industry-collapses/476959.md?page=2)