# Other than the war, how great a President was Lincoln? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322 "2012-05-18T14:56:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/21 "2012-05-18T16:56:11Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Actually, he did. Congress passed some of the most important domestic legislation of the Nineteenth Century during the Lincoln administration–the Homestead Act, the Morrill Act granting states land from the public domain provided that they sold it and used the proceeds to establish state universities, and the act providing for a transcontinental railroad, subsidized by land from the public domain. These three laws defined public land policy for the next two generations, and set the terms for the settlement of the West. This is pretty much what i came in to say. Of course, Lincoln didn’t do all this by himself, by any means, but there was plenty of non-war related legislation going on during the Civil War. Nitpick re the railroad: It was actually a series of acts, starting in 1862 and followed up by a new act every year for the next three or four years. IIRC, it was actually the 1864 Act that really made the biggest difference, and allowed work to begin in earnest. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/22 "2012-05-18T17:06:46Z")
I think this is probably better suited to IMHO than GQ. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/23 "2012-05-18T17:12:43Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > The Union was preserved more through default than through any of Lincoln’s direct actions. To say he saved it is a lot like saying that Stalin saved the Soviet Union from the Germans (he didn’t). Interestingly, Stalin did in fact save the Soviet Union from the Germans. And won WWII. The answer to the OP is historians punt the whole question. The things that happened outside the war are totally neglected or passed over lightly by every historian I’ve read. (I so want to do a book on this and so want not to have to do the research that would be required.) But that in itself should tell us something. For the North, life went on very much as usual. The war had hideous effects on individuals and families, but not on the states. Almost all the fighting was confined to border or slave states; the few instances in which the South pushed into the North were met by near-hysteria. Doing so was not a mistake by the South - no war can ever be won by fighting solely on your own territory.\* These incursions show the incredible superiority the North had. It literally could not lose except by surrender. Lincoln would never surrender, and that is why he both won the war and is ranked high by historians. Both he and Congress continued to run the country with as much continuity as possible during the war. The bills already mentioned show a magnificent future vision of normality, expansion, and success that I would say is a unique attitude for any country engaged in a war of this magnitude. We did less of this in WWI and WWII, even though half the physical territory of the country wasn’t being devastated. Lincoln should get enormous credit just because he kept the country going on in a way that would be invisible to history if the war could somehow be filtered away. The years 1855-1860, 1861-1865, and 1866-1870 would all look essentially identical in a history book were it not for the war. That’s unprecedented and undervalued. \*Nitpickers, I mean territory you control: this is as applicable to civil wars as any others. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/24 "2012-05-18T17:19:56Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Lincoln’s domestic policy was the win the war (and later, to abolish slavery, and combat vampirism). He didn’t really have room for much else. FIFY ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/25 "2012-05-18T17:47:12Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > no war can ever be won by fighting solely on your own territory. What about the American Revolution? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/26 "2012-05-18T18:00:17Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > FIFY Hi, Son of a Rich… Just to let you know, it’s [against the rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697048&postcount=11) to change the quote of someone’s post. Please refrain from doing this again. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/27 "2012-05-18T18:11:10Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > What about the American Revolution? The high seas. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/28 "2012-05-18T18:15:54Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The high seas. umm, ok, but the various South American Independence wars were won without significant naval actions. Also, the Algerian Independence war against the french, the Vietnam war (against the french at least, against the USA you could count south Vietnam as enemy territory). ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/29 "2012-05-18T18:22:29Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The high seas. A nitpick, at best. The premise is wrong. A war for autonomy can be won fighting solely within the area a group wants autonomy over, if one is willing to wait out an unpopular war for the occupiers. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/30 "2012-05-18T18:24:49Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Plenty of people don’t like Lincoln because he was the first president to institute a draft for military service. There was rioting in several Northern cities as a result. Does he take any blame for instituting the income tax? ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/31 "2012-05-18T18:34:51Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Actually, he did. Congress passed some of the most important domestic legislation of the Nineteenth Century during the Lincoln administration–the Homestead Act, the Morrill Act granting states land from the public domain provided that they sold it and used the proceeds to establish state universities, and the act providing for a transcontinental railroad, subsidized by land from the public domain. These three laws defined public land policy for the next two generations, and set the terms for the settlement of the West. > > In addition the Lincoln administration oversaw the restoration of nationally chartered banks (albeit fully private ones) for the first time since Andrew Jackson killed the BUS. The national banks created a national currency and presided over the US financial system during the years in which the US became a financial superpower, until the creation of the Fed in 1913. If that was all he was known for I think Lincoln would still be placed at least in the top quarter of great Presidents (unless you think activism is a bad Presidential trait) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/32 "2012-05-18T18:49:53Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that Mr. Lincoln was incredibly lucky that the South invaded the North in 1863 and threw away what was probably its best army at the Battle of Gettysburg, after which the Confederacy didn’t stand much of a chance. > > Even with the North’s overwhelming superiority in wealth, resources, industry and population, there was a decent chance the South could have won if they had just sat tight and waited for Northerners to tire of the war (and for the Confederacy to obtain international recognition and aid). > > Lincoln’s other great stroke of luck was in finally finding cutthroat generals like Sherman and Grant who had no compunction about ravaging the South (which, according to Lincoln, had never actually left the Union; ergo, they thought nothing of slaughtering people who were still considered to be their fellow citizens and shattering their local economy for decades to come). > > Up until 1864, Lincoln was responsible mainly for appointing losers like McClellan to high military posts, singlehandedly doing more to damage the North’s war effort than the entire Confederate leadership combined. > > The Union was preserved more through default than through any of Lincoln’s direct actions. Part of the problem here is a misunderstanding of Lincoln’s achievements. Lincoln was directly responsible for the South attacking first. He resisted IMMENSE pressure to start the war while _quite deliberately_ maneuvering South Carolina into firing on Sumter. Not luck in the slightest. Lincoln wasn’t responsible for Lee’s move toward Gettysburg, but long before that move, he’d determined that every time the Confederate armies moved north, they became vulnerable to isolation and annihilation. Antietam and Gettysburg were each golden opportunities to wipe out Lee entirely and all but win the war at a stroke, and Lincoln was one of the very few people to grasp this. The North didn’t have as overwhelming an advantage in resources and men as people always seem to imply – other wars have been won against MUCH longer odds (notably the American Revolution and the Vietnam War.) But the leveraging of those resources was more effective because of Lincoln’s tireless work. The South’s failure to receive foreign recognition and aid was partly due to Lincoln’s work. The Emancipation Proclamation made it politically impossible for Britain to support the Confederacy (and France had to follow Britain’s lead at that time) – Britain’s out-of-work textile workers, despite being idled by the cotton famine, would not support slavery, even at the cost of economic ruin. And the Proclamation’s having this effect was planned. Furthermore, the Proclamation’s release was made possible by Antietam, which was (barely, sort-of) won by McClellan – AFTER Lincoln had sustained him in defiance of Congress and his own cabinet. (When one official suggested _anyone_ would be better than McClellan, Lincoln famously shook his head and said, “_Anyone_ might do for you, but I must have _someone_.” On that occasion, at least, Little Mac was necessary – the army had been shattered after Pope’s debacle, and probably only McClellan could have restored its morale and organization in time for Antietam. Also, in the \*Trent \*affair, Lincoln resisted calls for war with Britain, and eventually got a response from his Secretary of State that defused the situation while maintaining American honor (and scoring political points with the American public.) Lincoln had, of course, had early difficulty with this cabinet member, but had won the man over – it wasn’t luck. Lincoln’s search for “cutthroat” generals wasn’t “luck.” If anything, he had BAD luck getting generals, and he worked his way through a lot of them to find the winners. And your characterization of Sherman and Grant is at best superficial – Grant hated killing and was deeply disturbed by what he felt compelled to do, which, by the way, did \*end \*the killing. And Sherman’s war on economic property was a very conscious choice to save lives, Southern lives included. faced with the choice of “shattering local economies” or “killing large numbers of people,” he chose the less bloodthirsty course and has been denounced ever after by people who, apparently, value plantation houses over human lives. Sherman on several occasions allowed small Confederate armies to slip away, or brushed them aside, because killing those men wasn’t going to be enough damage to win the war (and his marches were _already_ winning the war.) Look at the Straight Dope’s own “Greatest Military Leader Elimination Game” thread in the game room for more on this topic. Certainly the Union was, by definition, the work of many people, and Lincoln didn’t do everything by himself. But he’s rightly credited with doing a remarkable number of things right, at a time when the country desperately needed someone who could do that. And maybe he did get lucky a few times. But almost everything you attributed to “luck” above was the product of hard work, statesmanship, leadership, and clear thinking. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/33 "2012-05-18T20:35:28Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that Mr. Lincoln was incredibly lucky that the South invaded the North in 1863 and threw away what was probably its best army at the Battle of Gettysburg, after which the Confederacy didn’t stand much of a chance. > > Even with the North’s overwhelming superiority in wealth, resources, industry and population, there was a decent chance the South could have won if they had just sat tight and waited for Northerners to tire of the war (and for the Confederacy to obtain international recognition and aid). The South lost the western part of their entire country by mid-1863, and prior to that had already lost their largest city. You can’t “sit tight” when your country has been bisected and the other side is itching to invade. Gettysburg represented about one percent of Confederate army deaths during the war and was a loss of no ground and no initiative. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/34 "2012-05-18T20:44:14Z")
Lincoln was also able to carry out the war without demonizing his opponents. How many leaders of a devastating civil war have responded “with malice towards none”? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/35 "2012-05-18T20:55:27Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Actually, he did. Congress passed some of the most important domestic legislation of the Nineteenth Century during the Lincoln administration–the Homestead Act, the Morrill Act granting states land from the public domain provided that they sold it and used the proceeds to establish state universities, and the act providing for a transcontinental railroad, subsidized by land from the public domain. These three laws defined public land policy for the next two generations, and set the terms for the settlement of the West. > > In addition the Lincoln administration oversaw the restoration of nationally chartered banks (albeit fully private ones) for the first time since Andrew Jackson killed the BUS. The national banks created a national currency and presided over the US financial system during the years in which the US became a financial superpower, until the creation of the Fed in 1913. **Mrs. Lincoln:** “Well, to be honest, it was actually quite funny.” ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/36 "2012-05-18T21:01:41Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Lincoln was also able to carry out the war without demonizing his opponents. How many leaders of a devastating civil war have responded “with malice towards none”? We can’t even pull off an election by that standard anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/37 "2012-05-18T21:09:28Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > The North didn’t have as overwhelming an advantage in resources and men as people always seem to imply It’s the other way round. The North had far more of an advantage in resources and men than historians have given them credit for. None of the standard histories that are always - and rightly - recommended here talk about how overwhelming the advantage was. You have to go to more specialized econometric histories for that. One point that seldom gets mentioned: The North saw over 750,000 immigrants move there _during the war_. Although refugees often move between countries during war I believe this is the only example of a voluntary mass migration to a country at total war. The majority of these were young, single men looking to make good, and large numbers of them accepted the bounties offered for enlisting. In another uniqueness, the Civil War is probably the only war in history in which one side had a larger population of healthy young men to use as troops at the end of the war than at the beginning. And this is still less of an advantage than the monumental superiority the North had in railroads, arms, telegraph wire, and every other type of industry. The South was basically Iraq. We apparently don’t like to acknowledge this because it demeans the valor of the Northern troops and makes the Great Combat into an unfair fight between an adult and a child. But that’s what it was, although it surely did not appear to them to be so. It takes hindsight to understand. And to clarify, when I said that Lincoln would have to surrender to lose, I meant that all wars on rebel territory can be won only if the other side just gives it up as not worth the expense. The South could not win the war merely by winning battles on its territory and all of its political and military leaders knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/38 "2012-05-18T22:21:13Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Well let’s see, he was _responsible_ for appointing bad generals, but _lucky_ when he got competent ones. But even though they were competent they were ruthless because they “hit me back” which as we all know is [whine]_not fair_[/whine]. > > I don’t understand southern apologists. You really want to defend an attempt to extend slavery? You think that while we did end slavery the net “freedom” index ended up negative because Federalism was weakened? Hell, you still got the chance to have lynchings and separate drinking fountains for another hundred years. That wasn’t enough for you? This post is ace. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/39 "2012-05-18T23:12:20Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s the other way round. The North had far more of an advantage in resources and men than historians have given them credit for. Well, since I’m replying to people who insist that the North’s victory was utterly inevitable due to overwhelming superiority, it can’t _really_ be “the other way 'round.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322/40 "2012-05-19T00:12:50Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Well, since I’m replying to people who insist that the North’s victory was utterly inevitable due to overwhelming superiority, it can’t _really_ be “the other way 'round.” It is very nice to know that others also say this, but in my experience they are few and far between. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/other-than-the-war-how-great-a-president-was-lincoln/622322.md?page=3)