# Otzi the Gay Caveman **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 19, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392 "2013-03-19T19:51:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b9bd4f/32.png) [@grue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grue)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/1 "2013-03-19T19:51:35Z")
Regarding [What’s the story with Otzi the gay caveman? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/920/whats-the-story-with-otzi-the-gay-caveman) > [@](#): > > The headline pretty much says it all. Other dubious details include Otze’s absurdly exact age (what did they do, find his driver’s license?) For what it’s worth, it actually is possible to determine age to absurd accuracy, at least with modern techniques (I don’t know if this was the case in 1992 when this article was first written). The circadian cycle affects tooth and bone growth, making it possible to determine pretty much th exact number of days something was alive - by cutting it open and counting the (microscopic) rings. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/2 "2013-03-19T20:04:01Z")
> [@grue](#): > > …exact number of days something was alive… I assume “5,477-year-old Stone Age man” refers to how many years he’d been dead, not how many days he’d been alive. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/3 "2013-03-19T22:58:49Z")
> [@grue](#): > > Regarding [What’s the story with Otzi the gay caveman? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/920/whats-the-story-with-otzi-the-gay-caveman) > > For what it’s worth, it actually is possible to determine age to absurd accuracy, at least with modern techniques (I don’t know if this was the case in 1992 when this article was first written). The circadian cycle affects tooth and bone growth, making it possible to determine pretty much th exact number of days something was alive - by cutting it open and counting the (microscopic) rings. I don’t believe this is true in any way. Please provide scientific papers for cites. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/4 "2013-03-20T13:42:14Z")
Wiki has a good article - it’s amazing what they’ve been able to learn about him, but his exact age, or the exact number of years since he died, are apparently not among them: [Ötzi - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otzi) ---
**Author:** ![kneegrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@kneegrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kneegrow)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/5 "2013-03-23T04:28:57Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I assume “5,477-year-old Stone Age man” refers to how many years he’d been dead, not how many days he’d been alive. I assume you left out the \*found mummified - part just to make that joke? As in \*"the 5,477-year-old Stone Age man found \*\*\*mummified \*\*_in a melting glacier high in the Italian Tyrolean Alps"_ Unless, of course, you think that \*mummified \*means “It’s alive!” in one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/6 "2013-03-23T04:42:53Z")
> [@kneegrow](#): > > I assume you left out the \*found mummified > > - part just to make that joke? > As in \*"the 5,477-year-old Stone Age man found \*\*\*mummified \*\*_in a melting glacier high in the Italian Tyrolean Alps"_ > > Unless, of course, you think that \*mummified \*means “It’s alive!” in one way or another. No joke. Cecil said it was absurd that they could determine an exact age (5,477 years old, clearly how long Otzi has been dead). **grue** countered that it’s not so absurd because teeth can tell us how many days someone had been alive. I was just pointing out that “5,477-year-old mummy” has nothing to do with how many circadian cycles his teeth had gone thru while alive. ---
**Author:** ![kneegrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@kneegrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kneegrow)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/7 "2013-03-23T10:48:07Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > No joke. Cecil said it was absurd that they could determine an exact age (5,477 years old, clearly how long Otzi has been dead). **grue** countered that it’s not so absurd because teeth can tell us how many days someone had been alive. I was just pointing out that “5,477-year-old mummy” has nothing to do with how many circadian cycles his teeth had gone thru while alive. Hmmm, I don’t buy it. I actually liked the joke, until I discovered the original sentence. You wrongly blamed them for inaccurate wording with this > [@](#): > > I assume “5,477-year-old Stone Age man” refers to how many years he’d been dead, not how many days he’d been alive. Nothing to do with circadian cycles. If you referred to them, you too, worded it poorly. I mean, to get into your joke here: Why would anyone assume that some cave dude lived for 5,000 years? 😕 😕 Surely no one could have inferred that from the original texts. Please, don’t try to wriggle out of it all by side tracking about circadian rhythms. :)😉 Be a good sport. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/8 "2013-03-23T13:57:41Z")
> [@kneegrow](#): > > Please, don’t try to wriggle out of it all by side tracking about circadian rhythms. :)😉 Be a good sport. The media reported an age of the mummy: 5,477 years. It is obvious to everyone that the mummy is dead. Cecil said the age was absurdly exact. **grue** said age can be determined to absurd exactness, but **grue** was clearly referring to age in days _at_ death, not age in years _after_ death. So obviously **grue** misread the column. Circadian rhythms are not _my_ “side track”, they are the OP of this thread that was started by grue because he misread a Straight Dope column. I am done arguing about this. Read the column, and read **grue** ’s OP. If it’s not clear to you that the OP was due to a misread of the column, well, now I’ve explained it 3 times and I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/9 "2013-03-24T03:18:14Z")
Old joke: A science museum guard, near retirement, takes his replacement for a tour of the museum. He points to a dinosaur’s bones and says, “That dinosaur is 68,000,027 years old.” “Wow!” says the new guy. “How do you know its age that specifically?” “Well,” says the old guard, “it was 68,000,000 years old when I started work here 27 years ago!” ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/10 "2013-03-24T08:17:20Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > The media reported an age of the mummy: 5,477 years. It is obvious to everyone that the mummy is dead. Cecil said the age was absurdly exact. **grue** said age can be determined to absurd exactness, but **grue** was clearly referring to age in days _at_ death, not age in years _after_ death. So obviously **grue** misread the column. Circadian rhythms are not _my_ “side track”, they are the OP of this thread that was started by grue because he misread a Straight Dope column. I am done arguing about this. Read the column, and read **grue** ’s OP. If it’s not clear to you that the OP was due to a misread of the column, well, now I’ve explained it 3 times and I’m done. Ok did I read the OP wrong because to me it was clear the OP was saying that nowadays(as opposed to '92) the exact age at death of a mummy can be determined. So that say Otzi could be pronounced with scientific certainty to be 35 years, 123 days and 12 hours old AT DEATH(example of course). I don’t know if that is true, but that is what the OP claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/11 "2013-03-25T19:13:05Z")
Lots of confusion to go around. The column said: > [@](#): > > “Otztal Valley, Italy — The mainstream media reported widely on ‘Otzi,’ the 5,477-year-old Stone Age man found mummified…:” > > …Other dubious details include Otzi’s absurdly exact age (what did they do, find his driver’s license?) Given that there are no other remarks about Otzi’s age except how old the mummified remains were, it sounds like Cecil was commenting on the exactness of 5,477 years, rather than the biological age that Otzi attained before death. Although “driver’s license” is somewhat ambiguous, since it typically shows one’s birthdate, and thus is typically used to determine current age. Then **grue** posted his comment that circandian cycles could be used to determine age. Thus, **Rhodes** made his astute comment that 5,477 refers to the age of the mummy, not the age Otzi was when he died. **kneegrow** then misunderstood **Rhodes** , and posted his accusation that **Rhodes** was being deliberately misleading or something. To which **Rhodes** replied with his explanation. And then **kneegrow** failed to follow the thread. Now if there were info about Otzi’s age at death, then knowing circadian rhythms and growth cycles on bones and teeth can be used to determine that age might be relevant. But nothing was said about Otzi’s age at death in the column. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/12 "2013-03-25T19:29:26Z")
Yes! That’s exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks **Irishman**. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/13 "2023-08-16T20:55:56Z")
Bumped. Yeah, I can see why people might think he was gay: > **[Ötzi the Iceman’s true appearance revealed by new DNA analysis | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/16/europe/otzi-the-iceman-physical-traits-scn/index.html)** > > More than three decades after Ötzi’s accidental discovery in the Alps, scientists are still learning new things about the murdered iceman. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/14 "2023-08-17T13:37:17Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Yeah, I can see why people might think he was gay: From the linked article, all I saw was that new DNA tests showed that his darker skin was his real skin color rather than a byproduct of the mummification process. What about the linked article made you think he was gay? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/15 "2023-08-17T13:45:44Z")
The picture. I was joking. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/16 "2023-08-17T13:54:11Z")
…what? I have no idea what about the picture you could be referring to. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/17 "2023-08-17T17:14:29Z")
He was shirtless, and wearing leather clothes, including assless chaps. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/18 "2023-08-17T17:58:03Z")
Oh, I see. The picture was pretty blurry pn my phone so I didn’t realize that the pants were so revealing. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/19 "2023-08-17T19:31:27Z")
All chaps are assless by definition. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392/20 "2023-08-17T20:04:01Z")
Even all of Bertie Wooster’s friends?!? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/otzi-the-gay-caveman/653392.md?page=2)