# Ouch...possible illegal killing of an insurgent in Fallujah. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985 "2004-11-16T02:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/181 "2004-11-17T19:10:40Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > This whole incident raises a few questions for me. If a soldier would knowingly do something like this infrnt of a camera, and we are not talking a hidden camera but an imbedded camera man, what do the soldiers without camera men around do out there? Er, well, remember that who Abu Ghraib incident? One of the interesting things to me is that catching something like this on video is rare - it means that it is probably happening fairly frequently. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/182 "2004-11-17T19:17:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You know this…how exactly? That the body was neither booby trapped (which seems unlikely to me as well as far as the guys reaction), nor that this marine thought the guy was potentially armed or dangerous? You get all this from the video tape? Because I watched the same tape and I can’t draw any definite conclusions from it. I agree that there may be mitigating factors, and we should wait until the statements of the people that were in the mosque are made public to pass judgement. That said, the insurgent is prone on the ground, his hands at his sides, with an M16 pointed at his head. The video, the fact that marines had just been in the building, and the fact that no one says anything like “he has a gun”, or even “watch out”, makes it hard to belive the guy was a threat. The scariest part of the video is that fact that the marines that were already in the building claim to have already shot 2 of the people inside. When asked if they had weapons, they don’t give any (audible) answer. Personally, I hope it turns out there was a huge pile of RPG’s and AK-47s in there, because if not this might be a worse case then it first appeared. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/183 "2004-11-17T19:19:34Z")
> [@X~Slayer(ALE)](#): > > And what is _reality_ as you define it? Our grandhildren serving a tour in Iraq? is that reality? Being an old guy who didn’t start breeding until fairly late in life we can conclude that if our involvement in Iraq lasts for another 15 years my grandchildren might well serve in the army of occupation. I have younger friends whose children have served there in this go around, at least two have been wounded but thankfully none killed. I’m reasonably sure that my father did not expect that his son would be part of an occupying force in Europe some 25 years after he landed in France. The possibility that my country will still be trying to restore some sort of order in Iraq in another twenty years is not an alternative reality. Stuff like this incident makes it all the more likely that it will happen or that the US will suffer a humiliating defeat in the meantime. The legalities of the shooting just don’t matter. There will be people who refuse to accept the plain evidence of the video, just as there were people who refused to accept the plain evidence of a police riot in Chicago in 1968 or in the Rodney King incident or the photos of ditches layered with the dead bodies of women, children and old men at Mai Li. When the clear demonstration conflicts with preconceptions in which there is a substantial emotional or political investment some folks will refuse to believe the evidence of their own eyes. But as I say, the legalities don’t matter. Apologists and true believers can conjure and speculate all the alternative scenarios they want but the fact remains that the image of a US Marine ( Semper Fi, Mac) shooting an apparently incapacitated, disarmed, gravely injured man in the head at point blank range has and will do the ability of the US to establish civil order in Iraq and through out the Middle East grievous harm. Surely this kid can concoct and excuse; posters here have speculated and conjectured any number so far. That however does not change the fact that this is one more verse to a litany that has and will persuade even reasonable Iraqi’s and other Arabs that the US is a brutal and capricious overlord that is better to resist that to accept. We saw the same sort of thing with the Mai Li Massacre. Once the facts were out and the prosecutions started the facts became irrelevant and the apologists were all over the place with excuses for what was major horror and an unacceptable breech of the soldier’s code and an astonishing break down of command leadership. It is worth saying again that the fact that your adversary does horrific things does not justify you answering in kind. For one thing, our adversary is trying to terrorize. We are trying to persuade. Terror is not persuasive. All terror begets is a spiral of vengeance and vendetta. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/184 "2004-11-17T19:35:45Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > One of the interesting things to me is that catching something like this on video is rare - it means that it is probably happening fairly frequently. Interesting line of reasoning. I assume that if it had **never** been filmed, that means that it happens **every** time. Or perhaps it is rarely filmed because it rarely happens. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Nor is it proof of presence. All this is assuming the video was not doctored in any way, or presented so as to be misleading. I think I am the only person in North America who has only seen the Rodney King video in its unedited form. And when I first saw it, I couldn’t understand why the police were indicted. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/185 "2004-11-17T19:39:45Z")
**John Mace** : Of course I want tyhe dude to get a free trial and to have the opportunity to present any evidence in his defense. But I also think that because the video shows a _prima facie_ war crime- i.e., the killing of an unarmed and wounded prisoner- that the burden of proof has shifted to the defendant to show why it _wasn’t_ a war crime. > [@xtisme](#): > > :dubious: Google “UCMJ Battle Fatigue Stress Defense”…there are 221 hits. Knock yourself out DtC. Just on the first page I see quite a few btw. Congratulations. “Bush stinky douche” turns up 1100 hits on google. Big deal. I don’t suppose you can actually specify what part of the UCMJ defines battle stress as a defense to murder. > [@](#): > > You know this…how exactly? That the body was neither booby trapped (which seems unlikely to me as well as far as the guys reaction), nor that this marine thought the guy was potentially armed or dangerous? You get all this from the video tape? Because I watched the same tape and I can’t draw any definite conclusions from it. Because the marines had already been in there and checked things out, because if they were worried about the possibility of a mined body they wouldn’t have waited for a body to move and because shooting a body with a bomb wired to it is not going to disarm the bomb and might even set it off. If he really thought he was shooting at a bomb then he was actually putting himselfand his buddies in _more_ danger, not less. And no one on the tape says anything about a booby trap, nor do they seem to even check for one. If that was the fear then why would they assume they were out of danger just because the body was dead? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/186 "2004-11-17T20:43:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Of course I want tyhe dude to get a free trial and to have the opportunity to present any evidence in his defense. But I also think that because the video shows a _prima facie_ war crime- i.e., the killing of an unarmed and wounded prisoner- that the burden of proof has shifted to the defendant to show why it _wasn’t_ a war crime. Not in a legal sense it hasn’t. The guy will have defend himself against the charge, and the evidence might be strong against him. His lawyer will almost certainly try to use the tactic of proving his innocence, but if your statement were true, all the prosecution would have to do is show the video. I strongly doubt that that tactic by the prosecution would work. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/187 "2004-11-17T21:21:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > He couldn’t trust the dude because he was breathing? What kind of fucked up logic is that? One could argue the act of “pretending to be dead” is suspicious. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > As for this fast growing “booby trap” excuse- why would the victim be any _more_ likely to be mined if he was alive than if he wasn’t? And how would shooting the guy stop a bomb from going off? Alive or dead, he could be booby traped. Alive, he can trigger it himself, which is a lot easier than rigging up a body so that it goes off just when you want it. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And couldn’t ANY man, woman, baby, cat or dog _conceivably_ be mined? Does that mean we should shoot literally everything that moves just to be safe? And, once again, how does shooting the body stop the bomb from going off? Unfortunately, it’s conceivable that these guys could use women or children to deliver bombs, etc. Palestinian terrorists do it. The Viet Cong did it. That puts a soldier in a very difficult position, because literally _anyone_ is a potential threat, and the whole concept of what a “noncombatant” goes right out the window. I think fighting an enemy, in such a manner is despicable and at least as attrocious as anything in this war we have seen. What options do you leave your adversary, when you are willing to commit suicide, or to use bodies as traps? Perhaps the American soldier in this incident broke the rules, but the fighters in Falujah have shown they respect no rules of engagement of any kind. They don’t surrender; rather, even when they have no hope of survival, they play cat-and-mouse with soldiers and force pursuit into civilian targets, which must essentially be destroyed; otherwise, they have to be rooted out from the cover of a structure, which is extremely dangerous for the adversary, and serves no purpose but to kill as many as possible before being taken down. This is the reality for soldiers engaging in urban guerilla warfare in Iraq, and I think these issues do deserve mention, since we don’t have all the facts in the case. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/188 "2004-11-17T22:44:38Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > One could argue the act of “pretending to be dead” is suspicious. 'Course it’s a thin line between playing possum and being passed out on the floor from blood loss. > [@](#): > > Alive or dead, he could be booby traped. Alive, he can trigger it himself, which is a lot easier than rigging up a body so that it goes off just when you want it. That’s the essential question here. If an apparently unconcious enemy is found, should the soldiers be required to take the risk to approch him and see if he’s really out? There’s always a thin chance he could be faking and sitting on a grenade or something. On the other hand, do we really want our soldiers just to shoot every unconcious enemy they come across? I really don’t know which I’d choose, it’s a tough choice. On an unrelated note, did anyone else find it kind of bizarre that in footage showing the Marines occupying a mosque full of the dead and dying and then shooting one of them in the head, the news networks edited out the swear words? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/189 "2004-11-18T17:09:03Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Being an old guy who didn’t start breeding until fairly late in life we can conclude that if our involvement in Iraq lasts for another 15 years my grandchildren might well serve in the army of occupation. I have younger friends whose children have served there in this go around, at least two have been wounded but thankfully none killed. I’m reasonably sure that my father did not expect that his son would be part of an occupying force in Europe some 25 years after he landed in France. The possibility that my country will still be trying to restore some sort of order in Iraq in another twenty years is not an alternative reality. Stuff like this incident makes it all the more likely that it will happen or that the US will suffer a humiliating defeat in the meantime. and is that what you see what US forces are doing in Germany, France and anywhere else in Europe? You really see them as an _occupying force_?? You really think that US troops in Germany are there to quell the masses, maintain order, root out insurgents and force the germans to live in the american way? Take a look out your streets and watch the Volkswagens and Mercedeces and BMWs zip by. US troops arent there as occupiers. Check out you local recruiting office. Germany is considered a posh service stint. > [@](#): > > The legalities of the shooting just don’t matter. There will be people who refuse to accept the plain evidence of the video, just as there were people who refused to accept the plain evidence of a police riot in Chicago in 1968 or in the Rodney King incident or the photos of ditches layered with the dead bodies of women, children and old men at Mai Li. When the clear demonstration conflicts with preconceptions in which there is a substantial emotional or political investment some folks will refuse to believe the evidence of their own eyes. But as I say, the legalities don’t matter. Apologists and true believers can conjure and speculate all the alternative scenarios they want but the fact remains that the image of a US Marine ( Semper Fi, Mac) shooting an apparently incapacitated, disarmed, gravely injured man in the head at point blank range has and will do the ability of the US to establish civil order in Iraq and through out the Middle East grievous harm. Surely this kid can concoct and excuse; posters here have speculated and conjectured any number so far. That however does not change the fact that this is one more verse to a litany that has and will persuade even reasonable Iraqi’s and other Arabs that the US is a brutal and capricious overlord that is better to resist that to accept. Thats because reality can never be condensed or explained in 10 to 20 seconds. Reality is not summed up in a pivotal picture or video. Thats like learning all you need to know about the war in Iraq by listening to a 10 minute news broadcast in CNN. Things happen before, things happen after. The video is only part of the evidence. On the stand in a court of law, they make you tell the truth, the _whole_ truth an nothing but the truth. That video is just part of the truth. Mistaking it as all of the truth is as good as a lie. > [@](#): > > We saw the same sort of thing with the Mai Li Massacre. Once the facts were out and the prosecutions started the facts became irrelevant and the apologists were all over the place with excuses for what was major horror and an unacceptable breech of the soldier’s code and an astonishing break down of command leadership. > > It is worth saying again that the fact that your adversary does horrific things does not justify you answering in kind. For one thing, our adversary is trying to terrorize. We are trying to persuade. Terror is not persuasive. All terror begets is a spiral of vengeance and vendetta. It is also worth saying that when your enemy does unspeakable horrible acts that are in blatant disregard of any rule or law of conduct, then strictly following predictable patterns of conduct will definitely get you killed. We may not be justified to answer terror with terror but we will be damned if we act like british toy soldiers and line up in formation in an open field in bright uniforms while the enemy takes cover among civilians and fires upon us from far away. Smart tactics dictate we take no chances. smart tactics keep us soldiers alive. And I will not apologize for the My Lai incident. It is also worth saying that My Lai was an isolated incident and not an indication of what good soldiers did in Vietnam. X~Slayer ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/190 "2004-11-18T18:46:37Z")
> [@X~Slayer(ALE)](#): > > …And I will not apologize for the My Lai incident. It is also worth saying that My Lai was an isolated incident and not an indication of what good soldiers did in Vietnam… No one is asking that you apologise, at most we simply want to insist that you not forget it. It is a harsh lesson at a terrible price. It is an obscene waste of innocent lives to ignore. Even the best and brightest of the most advanced nation can become brutal and callous killers. Your characterization of My Lai as an “isolated incident” buggers the question: in what way was it exceptional? What unique circumstances prevailed at My Lai, circumstances you are confident were not repeated? I did hear one story, from a VVAW vet, who had heard rumors before the story broke, rumors that someone had screwed up and created a unit made up almost entirely of “vigins”, men just arrived who had not seen combat, so there was no one to “steady” them. It is the oldest axiom of military history that men panic on their first incidence of actual combat. Beyond his hearsay testimony, I have no special knowledge. Of course it is not an indication of what “good soldiers did in Viet Nam”. Its not an indication of what good soldiers do anywhere, anytime. The question is more what happened so that our young men _ceased to be_ good soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/191 "2004-11-18T18:50:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …buggers the question… I see that a lot around here. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/192 "2004-11-18T22:16:07Z")
> [@X~Slayer(ALE)](#): > > Check out you local recruiting office. Germany is considered a posh service stint. Clearly you have never been to Hoensfeld, Groefenwehr or Wildflicken, in the winter. As we use to say, in song Oh, there’s no flicken Like Wildflicken, It’s like no flicken I know. Although there was a nice little gasthaus in Groefenwehr town. 16 DM/night, including breakfast when the Mark was four to one. The only posh thing about the East-West border was that it was no place close to the Central Highlands ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/193 "2004-11-19T06:00:56Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Clearly you have never been to Hoensfeld, Groefenwehr or Wildflicken, in the winter. As we use to say, in song > > Oh, there’s no flicken > Like Wildflicken, > It’s like no flicken I know. > > Although there was a nice little gasthaus in Groefenwehr town. 16 DM/night, including breakfast when the Mark was four to one. The only posh thing about the East-West border was that it was no place close to the Central Highlands Its a posh place compared to south-central Fallujah. Climatic harshness or not, the US military arent there to occupy anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/194 "2004-11-19T06:14:01Z")
I find it fascinatng that some people on this board are willing to overlook the horrors the insurgents are committing, and always seem to give the other side the benefit of the doubt, but when it comes to an American soldier, the board erupts in outrage. But why don’t you listen to what [a Marine in Iraq has to say about it](http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008650.php): > [@](#): > > This is one story of many that people normally don’t hear, and one that everyone does. > This is one most don’t hear: > A young Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with Ak-47’s and RPG’s. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying, “Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!” He is badly wounded, lying in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly walk toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies come from behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds that of the outside, and the concussion seems to be felt before the blast is heard. Marines outside rush to the room, and look in horror as the dust gradually settles. The result is a room filled with the barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by an insurgent setting off several pounds of explosives. > > The Marines’ remains are gathered by teary eyed comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a box. The families can only mourn over a casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short by someone who hid behind a white flag. > > But no one hears these stories, except those who have lived to carry remains of a friend, and the families who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares. > > This is the story everyone hears: > > A young Marine and his fire team cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with AK-47’s and RPG’s. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insugent can be heard saying, “Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!” He is badly wounded. Suddenly, he pulls from under his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the room, killing one Marine, wounding the others. The young Marine catches shrapnel in the face. > > The next day, same Marine, same type of situation, a different story. The young Marine and his cover man enter a room with two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in puddle of blood, another against the wall. A reporter and his camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the background can be heard the voice of a Marine, “He’s moving, he’s moving!” > > The pop of a rifle is heard, and the insurgent against the wall is now dead. Minutes, hours later, the scene is aired on national television, and the Marine is being held for commiting a war crime. Unlawful killing. > > And now, another Marine has the possibility of being burned at the stake for protecting the life of his brethren. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming down their face. Brother, should I have been in your boots, i too would have done the same. > > For those of you who don’t know, we Marines, Band of Brothers, Jarheads, Leathernecks, etc., do not fight because we think it is right, or think > it is wrong. We are here for the man to our left, and the man to our right. We choose to give our lives so that the man or woman next to us can go home and see their husbands, wives, children, friends and families. > > For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television, and choose to condemn this man’s actions, I have but one thing to say to you. Get out of your recliner, lace up my boots, pick up a rifle, leave your family behind and join me. See what I’ve seen, walk where I have walked. To those of you who support us, my sincerest gratitude. You keep us alive. > > I am a Marine currently doing his second tour in Iraq. These are my opinions and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or of the US military, or any other. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/195 "2004-11-19T06:31:57Z")
So did the “story that nobody hears” actually happen? It’s not clear from the link. If insurgents faking injuries to lure marines in close so that they can blow themselves up is a regular tactic, then the marine involved in the shooting has a much stonger case. I haven’t actually heard a case of this happening, though. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/196 "2004-11-19T06:33:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No one is asking that you apologise, at most we simply want to insist that you not forget it. It is a harsh lesson at a terrible price. It is an obscene waste of innocent lives to ignore. Even the best and brightest of the most advanced nation can become brutal and callous killers. Where does it say that induction into the US military removes all criminal elements. History tells us that every army of every nation in any conflict since the beginning of history has had some atrocity commited in one form or another. That is not to say that the entire military force is made up of nothing but murderous criminals. There will always be a percentage of people, whether in the military or civilian, that will be nothing less than bad people. The US is not an exception to that. There were atrocities commited in world war I and II, in Korea and in vietnam. There will be atrocities commited in the future. Harsh lesson? What harsh lesson? That there are a small amount of murderers in the military? Or that people like you like to assume that one bad apple means all apples are bad. > [@](#): > > I did hear one story, from a VVAW vet, who had heard rumors … well, that sounds a like a sure trigger to an automatic lookup into [snopes.com](http://snopes.com) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/197 "2004-11-19T06:35:41Z")
I believe the phrase you are looking for is “permanent bases.” It’ll be interested to see if the US administration is yet ready to give up on that idea. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/198 "2004-11-19T07:09:10Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I find it fascinatng that some people on this board are willing to overlook the horrors the insurgents are committing, and always seem to give the other side the benefit of the doubt, but when it comes to an American soldier, the board erupts in outrage. Well, it sure _couldn’t_ be because we’re supposed to hold the United States (and its servicemen and women) to a higher standard, now would it? :rolleyes: Why do the Bush-lickin’ apologists feel that “At least we’re not as bad as \_\_\_\_\_!” is something to be proud of? And **Sam,** if you’re looking for testimonials from Iraq veterans, try [this one](http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/willtheyevertrustusagain/index.php?id=17) on for size: > [@](#): > > Today, I have been more nervous than the day I left for the Army, more nervous than my initial jump out of a C-130 and even more nervous than the day I loaded on to that C-17 to go to Iraq. It scares the shit out of me that there is a single soul in this country that can still be in support of George W. Bush. See, I joined the Army because of what happened on September 11th. I was all about going after the terrorists responsible for attacking us and I still am supportive of going after people like Usama Bin Laden. But the situation in Iraq is flat out wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/199 "2004-11-19T07:52:32Z")
Yeah, but he’s in the minority, because Bush has something like 60-70% support among active duty military. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/200 "2004-11-19T08:07:11Z")
Typical Republican attitude – “You don’t count, since you’re in the minority.” :rolleyes: But then, what did I expect from a party that thinks a 2% lead is a mandate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=11)