# Ouch...possible illegal killing of an insurgent in Fallujah. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985 "2004-11-16T02:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/241 "2004-11-22T18:34:12Z")
It was none of our business. And it’s not because it was “Muslims killing Muslims.” The ethnicity of those involved is completely irrelevant. I’m not going to let you load the question so that opposition to raiding Fallujah can be framed as some sort of cultural indifference. The most effective thing we could do to stop that stuff (which I suspect is greatly exaggerated if it’s happeneing at all…in any case, the insurgents in Iraq aren’t accused of doing anything to Iraqi civilians that _we_ aren’t doing to Iraqi civilians) would be to turn over all authoruty to the UN and leave. As long as we’re there we’re criminals. We don’t have the moral authority to impose any order, we clearly don’t have the discipline in the troops to inspire any trust and the civilian leadership can’t be trusted with any facet of the occupation or rebuilding. ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/242 "2004-11-22T19:25:32Z")
The cameraman who filmed the incident has his own blog, and he talks about the incident in great detail [here](http://www.kevinsites.net/). Also, [here](http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-08/10/article10.shtml) is a link to our use of napalm in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/243 "2004-11-22T20:58:18Z")
We aren’t using Napalm, we have something better. [link](http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20030805-9999_1n5bomb.html) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/244 "2004-11-22T21:31:02Z")
Are there any mainstream links about the use of napalm in Iraq (I’ll also note from both of your cites it isn’t talking about Fallujah). I’m not claiming it wasn’t done…just that I’m not going to buy this claim from a non-AP level source. > [@DtC](#): > > It was none of our business. And it’s not because it was “Muslims killing Muslims.” The ethnicity of those involved is completely irrelevant. I’m not going to let you load the question so that opposition to raiding Fallujah can be framed as some sort of cultural indifference. Reality check DtC…we ARE there. It IS our business because we made it our business to invade in the first place. Whether we should or shouldn’t be there is a moot point now, and has been for over a year. We ARE there…and its now on us to stabalize the situation. That includes taking out cities that are staging areas for the continued insurgency. Sorry that it IS a loaded question…I wasn’t framing it as cultural indifference. I was framing it as a lesser of two evils…i.e. what the US did might have been bad (hell, it was)…having the insurgents remain there was worse. > [@DtC](#): > > The most effective thing we could do to stop that stuff (which I suspect is greatly exaggerated if it’s happeneing at all…in any case, the insurgents in Iraq aren’t accused of doing anything to Iraqi civilians that we aren’t doing to Iraqi civilians) would be to turn over all authoruty to the UN and leave. As long as we’re there we’re criminals. We don’t have the moral authority to impose any order, we clearly don’t have the discipline in the troops to inspire any trust and the civilian leadership can’t be trusted with any facet of the occupation or rebuilding. Leaving aside your assertion that the things happening in Fallujah were greatly exaggerated (I notice you are never one to think assertions against the US are ‘greatly exaggerated’…funny that), I totally disagree that the UN could do anything at all…including find its ass with both hands. Certainly they don’t seem to be doing much of anything in the Sudan worth noting. Granted, we haven’t exactly been top shelf in Iraq, but at least we aren’t talking about high six figures death tolls while we stand around with our collective thumbs up our ass and dither. Exactly where would the UN get 140,000 odd troops to deploy to Iraq if the US pulled out DtC? Or is it your theory that as soon as the UN comes in the situation will magically stabalize?? Or, perhaps when you said ‘get out’ you only REALLY meant the US leadership should get out of the way and let the UN take over…while keeping our troops there of course? I know you are frustrated and angry…but keep it real man. -XT ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/245 "2004-11-23T03:21:42Z")
Just a little quibble > [@elucidator](#): > > We were attacked by a Shia fundamentalist, one of a number of the Wahabbi-type subsets of the Islamic faith. My Islam is rusty, but isn’t Whabbism asscociated with the Sunnis? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/246 "2004-11-23T03:56:33Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > Just a little quibble > > My Islam is rusty, but isn’t [Wahabiism] asscociated with the Sunnis? Only in the sense that Christian Identity is associated with Protestants. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/247 "2004-11-23T04:02:07Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Are there any mainstream links about the use of napalm in Iraq (I’ll also note from both of your cites it isn’t talking about Fallujah). I’m not claiming it wasn’t done…just that I’m not going to buy this claim from a non-AP level source. Your wish is our command. [Here](http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6465972.htm?1c) is an Associated Press story on the subject. As **treis** noted, it is not exactly napalm, just very much like napalm: > [@](#): > > Marine Corps fighter pilots and commanders say they dropped firebombs similar to napalm on Iraqi troops earlier this year, according to a report published Tuesday. > > The Marines say that in March, U.S. warplanes dropped dozens of incendiary bombs near bridges over the Saddam Canal and the Tigris River in central Iraq to clear the way for troops headed to Baghdad. > > “We napalmed both those (bridge) approaches,” said Col. Randolph Alles, commander of Marine Air Group 11, told the San Diego Union-Tribune. "Unfortunately, there were people there because you could see them in the (cockpit) video. > > “They were Iraqi soldiers there. It’s no great way to die,” Alles added. > > He could not provide estimates of Iraqi casualties. > > “The generals love napalm,” said Alles. “It has a big psychological effect.” > > … > > During the war, Pentagon officials denied napalm was being used, saying the Pentagon’s stockpile had been destroyed two years ago. Napalm, a thick, burning combination of polystyrene, gasoline and benzene, was used against people and villages in Vietnam. Its use drew widespread criticism. > > The newspaper said the spokesmen were apparently drawing a distinction between the terms firebomb and napalm. > > … > > According to the Union-Tribune report, the Marines dropped “Mark 77 firebombs,” which use kerosene-based jet fuel and a smaller concentration of benzene. Marine spokesman Col. Michael Daily acknowledged the incendiary devices were “remarkably similar” to napalm weapons, but have less impact on the environment. Well, hey, environmentally-friendlier napalm. I guess as an environmentalist, I ought to consider that progress. Somehow it doesn’t make me feel that much better though. ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/248 "2004-11-23T04:31:41Z")
**user\_hostile** : **DtC** originally said: > [@](#): > > IMO, we had no right to go into Fallujah at all … and you replied with: > [@](#): > > In your opinion, but, alas, we do have the “right” legally. Prime Minister Ayad Allawi is the soverign head of state, he gave permission to Iraqi and US forces to attack Fallujah. How is he in any way the sovereign head of state? Because Paul Bremer blessed him as such? If we’re speaking about the “right” to enter Fallujah as **DtC** referenced, then I think that’s a different story. He who has the biggest guns gets the rights, or something along those lines. But there is no question about the matter of legality (or in this case, lack thereof) and having a sanction by any head of state from Iraq. Currently, the closest Iraq has are heads of state which would be the Ayatollahs and they were relatively unanimous in their opposition to the operation in Fallujah. So it boils down to perhaps you had the right, but not the legal right. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/249 "2004-11-23T04:44:42Z")
I also think that invoking Iraqi “authority” is a tautology. Iraqi authority is whatever we say it is. They ask us to do whatever we order them to ask us to do. Have you ever seen Bush drink water while Allawi was talking? 'Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/250 "2004-11-23T09:52:43Z")
Posted this originally in the Pit thread but on reflection it seems more appropriate here. The camera man speaks for the first time about what happened and the aftermath. Very interesting. Well worth reading the full article. [‘Something was not right’](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1357396,00.html) > [@](#): > > It’s time for you to have the facts, in my own words, about what I saw, without imposing on that marine guilt or innocence or anything in between. I want you to read my account and make up your own minds. Here it goes. > [@](#): > > Through my viewfinder I can see him raise the muzzle of his rifle in the direction of the wounded Iraqi. There are no sudden movements, no reaching or lunging. > > However, the marine could legitimately believe the man poses some kind of danger. Maybe he’s going to cover him while another marine searches for weapons. > > Instead, he pulls the trigger. There is a small splatter against the back wall and the man’s leg slumps down. > > “Well he’s dead now,” says another marine in the background. > > I am still rolling. I feel the deep pit of my stomach. The marine then abruptly turns away and strides away, right past the fifth wounded insurgent lying next to a column. He is very much alive and peering from his blanket. > > He is moving, even trying to talk. But for some reason, it seems he did not pose the same apparent “danger” as the other man - though he may have been more capable of hiding a weapon or explosive beneath his blanket. > [@](#): > > No one, especially someone like me who has lived in a war zone, would deny that a soldier or marine could legitimately err on the side of caution under those circumstances. War is about killing your enemy before he kills you. > > In the particular circumstance I was reporting, it bothered me that the marine didn’t seem to consider the other insurgents a threat - the one very obviously moving under the blanket, or even the two next to me that were still breathing. > > I can’t know what was in the mind of that marine. He is the only one who does. > > But observing all of this as an experienced war reporter who always bore in mind the perils of this conflict, even knowing the possibilities of mitigating circumstances - it appeared to me very plainly that something was not right. According to Lt Col Bob Miller, the rules of engagement in Falluja required soldiers or marines to determine hostile intent before using deadly force. I was not watching from a hundred feet away. I was in the same room. Aside from breathing, I did not observe any movement at all. > [@](#): > > I did not in any way feel like I had captured some kind of “prize” video. In fact, I was heartsick. Immediately after the mosque incident, I told the unit’s commanding officer what had happened. I shared the video with him, and its impact rippled all the way up the chain of command. Marine commanders immediately pledged their cooperation. > > We all knew it was a complicated story and, if not handled responsibly, could have the potential to further inflame the volatile region. I offered to hold the tape until they had time to look into incident and begin an investigation - providing me with information that would fill in some of the blanks. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/251 "2004-11-23T12:32:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Only in the sense that Christian Identity is associated with Protestants. Far from that. And in addition: As far as I know Protestants are not considered a deviation and corruption of Christianity, it is an other interpretation of Christianity then say Catholicism. Wahhabism (as it is known as a sect) presents a severe corruption of Islamic teachings, even as deep as corrupting the commands (and intentions behind them) of Al Qur’an. I am a bit famous for not giving links to websites ever because I do not consider anything written on the internet to be a reliable source, except when it comes from “official” websites. In this case however, since writing the story of Wahhabism in English shall ask a lot of my time, I looked around a bit and found this. [http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi\_movement.htm](http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi_movement.htm) Didn’t read all of it but at first sight it looks like giving a fairly good introduction-for-beginners 🙂 Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/252 "2004-11-23T12:39:31Z")
Thanks for the link, tagos. That helps fill in a great many of the blanks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/253 "2004-11-23T14:26:07Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Far from that. > And in addition: As far as I know Protestants are not considered a deviation and corruption of Christianity, it is an other interpretation of Christianity then say Catholicism. > > Wahhabism (as it is known as a sect) presents a severe corruption of Islamic teachings, even as deep as corrupting the commands (and intentions behind them) of Al Qur’an. > > I am a bit famous for not giving links to websites ever because I do not consider anything written on the internet to be a reliable source, except when it comes from “official” websites. In this case however, since writing the story of Wahhabism in English shall ask a lot of my time, I looked around a bit and found this. > > [http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi\_movement.htm](http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/wahhabi_movement.htm) > > Didn’t read all of it but at first sight it looks like giving a fairly good introduction-for-beginners 🙂 > > Salaam. A You misunderstand me, Aldebaran, I was actually agreeing with you. You may not be familiar with the Christian Identity movement in the US. It’s a white supremacist “church” which is, as you put it, a “deviation and corruption” of Christianity. Since it is not Catholic one could say that it is technically a “Protestant” movement, but my point was that such would be an extremely misleading and unfair way to characterize it. I was trying to draw an analogy within Christianity that Americans would be familiar with to understand that Wahabbaism is not really Sunni Islam in the same way that CI is not really Protestant Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/254 "2004-11-23T15:38:34Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You may not be familiar with the Christian Identity movement in the US. No, never heard of it… I can’t keep up with these movements (counts also to a certain extent for the Islamic ones. You can’t avoid encountering the most amazing new things propagated by the New Enlightened Ones Of The Day) > [@](#): > > Since it is not Catholic one could say that it is technically a “Protestant” movement, but my point was that such would be an extremely misleading and unfair way to characterize it. I was trying to draw an analogy within Christianity that Americans would be familiar with to understand that Wahabbaism is not really Sunni Islam in the same way that CI is not really Protestant Christianity. I thought you were making a reference to the connection between Wahhabism and Shia Islam which an other member wrongly made. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/255 "2004-11-24T02:38:55Z")
[http://news.independent.co.uk//world/americas/story.jsp?story=585796](http://news.independent.co.uk//world/americas/story.jsp?story=585796) ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/256 "2004-11-24T02:41:25Z")
Usually I forget the link…this time I forgot the quote. > [@](#): > > The unarmed Iraqi prisoner killed by a US marine during the battle of Fallujah made no movements apart from breathing before he was shot dead, the NBC journalist who filmed the incident said yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Truth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/257 "2004-11-25T00:16:40Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Usually I forget the link…this time I forgot the quote. From your link: **"War is about killing your enemy before he kills you.** I do not fault the soldier. Good shot is my comment to the soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/258 "2004-11-25T01:46:03Z")
Aw well…Ms Gaudere would be all over my ass. But this post is perfect. rats. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/259 "2004-11-25T01:48:35Z")
See! I can show self control. God was it hard. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/260 "2004-11-25T02:00:02Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > See! I can show self control. > > God was it hard. > > 🙂 You’re not alone. I had to use the delete function myself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=14)