# Ouch...possible illegal killing of an insurgent in Fallujah. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985 "2004-11-16T02:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/21 "2004-11-16T04:36:14Z")
Everyone is assuming that shooting an unarmed and wounded combatant is a crime. I don’t think so. If he isn’t already a prisoner, or attempting to surrender, he is fair game. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/22 "2004-11-16T04:37:16Z")
I missed that part of the clip, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/23 "2004-11-16T04:39:19Z")
1.) The Geneva Convention is US law. 2.) There’s also a little thing called the UCMJ which is applicible here. 3.) Shooting a woundedm, unarmed prisoner is just plain old _wrong_. regardless of any written law. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/24 "2004-11-16T04:40:40Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Everyone is assuming that shooting an unarmed and wounded combatant is a crime. I don’t think so. If he isn’t already a prisoner, or attempting to surrender, he is fair game. He _was_ already a prisoner. Have you read anything at all about this story. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/25 "2004-11-16T04:40:52Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > International law is an oxymoron. Laws are created, exist and enforced _within_ nations. Is the military code of justice an oxymoron? ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/26 "2004-11-16T04:48:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > He _was_ already a prisoner. Have you read anything at all about this story. I read the story. It doesn’t say that he was a prisoner. He was a wounded combatant on the battlefield. Being wounded, dropping your rifle, or running away, does not give you immunity from enemy action. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/27 "2004-11-16T04:52:43Z")
The guy had been captured and disarmed two days before. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/28 "2004-11-16T04:53:29Z")
> [@MrTuffPaws](#): > > Okay, please explain how people can defend this soldier. He should be tried in an international court. He did a horrible thing defined by law, still people will come out to defend him. He should (and will) be tried by the UCMJ and if found guilty court martial and sent to prison most likely. He certainly crossed the line and as I said, if he’s found guilty he will be punished. > [@DtC](#): > > They KNEW he wasn’t armed, Sam. They were the ones who captured him and disarmed him (and wounded him). This simply isn’t true. Read the article. > [@](#): > > But Saturday, **another squad of Marines** found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again, only to find the same wounded men inside. > > Four of the men appeared to have been shot again in Saturday’s fighting, and one of them appeared to be dead, according to the pool report. In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing. > > A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, “He’s [expletive] faking he’s dead. He’s faking he’s [expletive] dead.” No idea what was going through this marines head at the time. I find it…instructional…that the majority of the board automatically jump to the worst possible conclusion and immediately call for blood and vengence though, even before all the facts are in on this. Its…interesting. > [@DtC](#): > > 1.) The Geneva Convention is US law. > > 2.) There’s also a little thing called the UCMJ which is applicible here. > > 3.) Shooting a woundedm, unarmed prisoner is just plain old wrong. regardless of any written law. 1. Well, we subscribe to the Geneva Convention, so I suppose its ‘US Law’. 2. Horseshit. Even if this was an issue under the Geneva Convention (which I’m unsure of for insurgents with no uniform…and also non-subscribers to said Convention), the UCMJ IS certainly applicable…and its what will be used to try and convict this marine if he’s found guilty. 3. Certainly true…its definitely forbidden in the UCMJ. As I’ve said, if this soldier is found guilty he will be punished. Why isn’t that good enough for you? > [@mks57](#): > > Everyone is assuming that shooting an unarmed and wounded combatant is a crime. I don’t think so. If he isn’t already a prisoner, or attempting to surrender, he is fair game. This is untrue, unless the person in question is a clear threat…or the soldier THINKS he’s a threat. Its pretty clear by the tape that (unless Sams speculation that the soldier thought he might be booby trapped) this guy was unarmed and no threat to anyone. If so, there is little to excuse such behavior. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/29 "2004-11-16T05:02:47Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > He should (and will) be tried by the UCMJ and if found guilty court martial and sent to prison most likely. > > He certainly crossed the line and as I said, if he’s found guilty he will be punished. > > This simply isn’t true. Read the article. I did read the article. I find no excuse there. It just confirms that the victim was an already disarmed prisoner. > [@](#): > > No idea what was going through this marines head at the time. I find it…instructional…that the majority of the board automatically jump to the worst possible conclusion and immediately call for blood and vengence though, even before all the facts are in on this. Its…interesting. Fascinating. I find it revealling that Bush lovers immediately try to find any possible justification, no matter how asinine, to excuse absolutely anything a US soldier does. > [@](#): > > 1. Well, we subscribe to the Geneva Convention, so I suppose its ‘US Law’. It’s US law because it’s a ratified treaty. > [@](#): > > 1. Horseshit. Even if this was an issue under the Geneva Convention (which I’m unsure of for insurgents with no uniform…and also non-subscribers to said Convention), the UCMJ IS certainly applicable…and its what will be used to try and convict this marine if he’s found guilty. That’s what I said, The UCMJ is applicable regardless of the GC. . Hello? > [@](#): > > 1. Certainly true…its definitely forbidden in the UCMJ. As I’ve said, if this soldier is found guilty he will be punished. Why isn’t that good enough for you? It _is_ good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/30 "2004-11-16T05:05:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > This is untrue, unless the person in question is a clear threat…or the soldier THINKS he’s a threat. Its pretty clear by the tape that (unless Sams speculation that the soldier thought he might be booby trapped) this guy was unarmed and no threat to anyone. If so, there is little to excuse such behavior. Let’s say that I’m a member of a sniper team that has infiltrated an enemy position. Are you saying that I can’t shoot unarmed soldiers, say cooks and mechanics who are doing their jobs, or resting? ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/31 "2004-11-16T05:14:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Is the military code of justice an oxymoron? No, not at all. But that shouldn’t and (thank god) won’t be decided in a court of public opinion, or with a CNN (or Fox) viewer poll, or by Kofi Anin at the UN, or by a bunch of us lazy nerds sitting on our asses wasting time in an internet forum. It will be decided by the **US military**. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/32 "2004-11-16T05:23:01Z")
Are we seriously discussing this as a matter of law? Law? “Well, the insurgent in question wasn’t wearing any uniform or readily identifiable markings, nor was he enlisted in any armed force of a signatory party…” I sincerely doubt anyone here is so devoid of moral compass that one must check into the legality of shooting an unarmed, wounded man. If I am wrong about that, I’m not at all sure I want to know. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/33 "2004-11-16T05:35:18Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > I did read the article. I find no excuse there. It just confirms that the victim was an already disarmed prisoner. Based on the facts as we know them right now I tentitively agree with you. I was commenting on your assertion that “They were the ones who captured him and disarmed him (and wounded him).”…this was simply untrue (at least according to the article I linked too). > [@DtC](#): > > Fascinating. I find it revealling that Bush lovers immediately try to find any possible justification, no matter how asinine, to excuse absolutely anything a US soldier does. I can’t stand Bush…as you well know. Or were you talking about someone else. Sorry that I’m not willing to jump to conclusions before all the facts are in. Bad of me I’m sure. :rolleyes: > [@DtC](#): > > That’s what I said, The UCMJ is applicable regardless of the GC. . Hello? Doh! My appologies DtC…I misunderheard you (basically read what you wrote wrong). Sorry. > [@DtC](#): > > It is good enough for me. Ok…me too. > [@mks57](#): > > Let’s say that I’m a member of a sniper team that has infiltrated an enemy position. Are you saying that I can’t shoot unarmed soldiers, say cooks and mechanics who are doing their jobs, or resting? No…you are building a strawman here. The two situations are compatable. The soldier was obviously wounded…he was obviously disarmed (as far as the data we know now). Going on those two tentitive assumptions, this marine was in the wrong to shoot this prisoner. Plain and simple. If more data comes out that says the man was a threat or some other circumstance then that might change things…at THIS time though such a scenerio is pure speculation based on what we know right now. > [@elucidator](#): > > I sincerely doubt anyone here is so devoid of moral compass that one must check into the legality of shooting an unarmed, wounded man. If I am wrong about that, I’m not at all sure I want to know. Please. My POINT was that such a fighter falls in a grey area as far as the Geneva Convention goes. However, our OWN code (the UCMJ) there is no grey area as far as this guy goes (and as far as the facts we presently know about goes)…what the marine did was simply wrong, and if convicted he will be punished. You can try to twist my words all you like to show I have no ‘moral compass’, but thats simply NOT what I said. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/34 "2004-11-16T05:36:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The two situations are compatable. Er…that should have been The two situations AREN’T compatable. :smack: -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/35 "2004-11-16T05:53:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > … You can try to twist my words all you like to show I have no ‘moral compass’, but thats simply NOT what I said. I don’t doubt it. My comments were not directed towards you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/36 "2004-11-16T06:00:05Z")
Yeah, we don’t need anything more than to see the 10 sec film clip to \*\*know \*\*the guy is guilty. :rolleyes: I’ll wait for all the evidence to come in before passing judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/37 "2004-11-16T06:00:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Based on the facts as we know them right now I tentitively agree with you. I was commenting on your assertion that “They were the ones who captured him and disarmed him (and wounded him).”…this was simply untrue (at least according to the article I linked too).[.quote] > Ok, it was a different set of Marines…still the legal status of the prisoner doesn’t change. > [qupte]I can’t stand Bush…as you well know. Or were you talking about someone else. Sorry that I’m not willing to jump to conclusions before all the facts are in. Bad of me I’m sure. :rolleyes: No, I wasn’t talking about you. There are others. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/38 "2004-11-16T06:00:49Z")
I always find it dreadfully fascinating to read threads like these and see who shows up to _defend_ the atrocities in question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/39 "2004-11-16T06:01:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Yeah, we don’t need anything more than to see the 10 sec film clip to \*\*know \*\*the guy is guilty. That’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/40 "2004-11-16T06:03:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t doubt it. My comments were not directed towards you. Oh. I’ll just slink off now, shall I? Sorry. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=3)