# Ouch...possible illegal killing of an insurgent in Fallujah. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985 "2004-11-16T02:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/81 "2004-11-16T17:23:06Z")
> [@TLC1](#): > > Good Iraqis already know what the insurgents represent. Insurgents are not soldiers. They are mercenaries…hired killers. Our “security contractors” are also mercenaries. Hired killers. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/82 "2004-11-16T17:27:47Z")
> [@jsleek](#): > > Kerry did somthing similar in Nam. He testified on TV about it. No he didn’t. [Here is his testimony before Congress](http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html): > [@](#): > > I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over **150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified** to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command… > > \*\*They told the stories \*\* at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. You are so desparate to condone war crimes you would falsely accuse a man just to make a political point. God have mercy on your soul. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/83 "2004-11-16T17:29:45Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s unlikely. Such a thing would have happened only once, and out of chance, there was a TV team at this precise place and time? I don’t buy it. I don’t buy it either. To finish my quote from earlier… “Perhaps not. But this will definitely not play well to the man in the Arabian street. Many will wonder how many atrocities were not caught on video.” My hunch, and I of course have nothing to base it on, is that this happened several if not many times. Perhaps the unfortunate outcome will be to ban journalists. If not caught on video, there would be no repercussions whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/84 "2004-11-16T17:33:29Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > IMNSHO, the insurgent wasn’t a prisoner. He may have been disarmed previously, but that unit moved on and did not take him into custody. The mosque was later reoccupied by enemy forces, and attacked by the Marines. I think there are precisely provisions in the Geneva convention to avoid this kind of situation. A prisonner should be moved away from the front lines, and not be left behind, if I’m not mistaken. Anyway, as soon as he was captured, he was a prisonner of war and was under US custody. There’s no opting out. That is assuming he would be protected by the Geneva convention. Which IMO is legally dubious, and anyway not aknowledged by the USA, AFAIK. Which doesn’t mean that said rules shouldn’t be nevertheless appied by the US army. ---
**Author:** ![TLC1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@TLC1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLC1)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/85 "2004-11-16T17:33:39Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Both units were present when the prisoner was shot. The shooter overreacted. Does anyone know for sure that, in fact, the insurgent was still alive? The video does not reflect this. If he was already dead, is there still a problem? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/86 "2004-11-16T17:36:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > As for this fast growing “booby trap” excuse- why would the victim be any _more_ likely to be mined if he was alive than if he wasn’t? And how would shooting the guy stop a bomb from going off? The idea, IMO, would be, not that he was booby trapped, but could have had some cancelled weapon, or grenade, and was faking death so that he could use the device when the soldier would come close. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/87 "2004-11-16T17:38:17Z")
> [@TLC1](#): > > Insurgents that are found guilty can be disposed of in any manner as far as I’m concerned. If they are there, they are guilty. Letting the punishment fit the crime is not an outrageous concept. Your level of outrage is higher than mine. Is there any behavior on the part of our soldiers that cannot be condoned by such logic? With an “anything goes” rule of war, you will have to destroy every man, woman and child in the country to subdue it, because even the once sympathetic Iraqis will recoil from your methods. And that makes them all enemies, and subject to your scorched earth policy. Freedom is pointless when you’re dead. ---
**Author:** ![TLC1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@TLC1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLC1)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/88 "2004-11-16T17:45:37Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > Our “security contractors” are also mercenaries. Hired killers. True, however I believe the contractors are hired to protect…not attack! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/89 "2004-11-16T17:47:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That is assuming he would be protected by the Geneva convention. Which IMO is legally dubious, and anyway not aknowledged by the USA, AFAIK. Which doesn’t mean that said rules shouldn’t be nevertheless appied by the US army. There is a grey area for non-uniformed combatants in the Geneva Convention, so I think ‘legally dubious’ about hits the mark. However, by our own code, unless this insurgent was clearly threatening the marine, the marine in question is clearly at fault and will be prosecuted. There may be extenuating circumstances (battle fatigue, emotional stress, etc), that MIGHT mitigate things…but clear and simple its spelled out in the code that you can’t shoot an unarmed prisoner, or even a disarmed and wounded combattant. As I’ve said, we don’t know all the facts yet on this case and its instructional that some folks are so willing to knee jerk jump on the ‘he’s guilty as hell’ bandwagon and scream for blood (figuratively). Its also instructional to see other folks already setting up excuses paths for the marine…all this, again, before we REALLY KNOW ANYTHING. I will await developements, and the only ‘excuse’ I will grant to this marine based on the sketchy stuff we currently know is…this kid is a KID. He’s a very young man in a difficult and stressful situation. I think SOME slack could be cut him while still acknowledging what he did LOOKS wrong (from what little we know now), and also acknowledging that he WILL be tried by a courts martial…who will, presumably know a hell of a lot more about what really happened than WE do right now. > [@clairobscur](#): > > The idea, IMO, would be, not that he was booby trapped, but could have had some cancelled weapon, or grenade, and was faking death so that he could use the device when the soldier would come close. Yes. Sort of like the insurgents waving white flags then firing upon the troops coming up to take their surrender. Its not THAT much of a stretch to think that someone could be faking their death to lure you in close enough to kill you…not over there with the way things are going these days in Iraq. Whether this was the case HERE though is still pure speculation…we simply don’t know right now. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/90 "2004-11-16T17:49:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic And couldn’t ANY man, woman, baby, cat or dog _conceivably_ be mined? Does that mean we should shoot literally everything that moves just to be safe? [/QUOTE] That’s already been going on for a long time- mainly when cars are approaching checkpoints - there have been plenty of cases of families being shot by troops who had previously been under attack from insurgents > [@](#): > > The US military is investigating the killing by soldiers of at least seven women and children near Karbala, in central Iraq, when a four-wheel-drive carrying up to 15 people allegedly failed to stop at a checkpoint. > Nearby, a man died while his wife watched as soldiers fired on their car at another checkpoint. > > In another checkpoint shooting yesterday, US marines killed an unarmed Iraqi south of Baghdad. The troops said they fired on a utility that sped towards them outside the southern town of Shatra, killing the driver and injuring his passenger. “I thought it was a suicide bomb,” said one marine who opened fire. > > Troops have been on edge after a suicide car-bomb attack at a checkpoint on Saturday killed four US soldiers. The next day, journalists with the 3rd Infantry Division reported that the rules of engagement appeared to have changed at checkpoints. [From here,](http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/040203_civilian_deaths_rock_campaign.htm) (but there are plenty of other cases [here,](http://globalsecurity.com/iraq/military_compensates.htm)[here,]([http://www.victorynews.net/](http://www.victorynews.net/) ShiaFamilyKilledDetailsClassified.htm)[here,](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/02/1048962796085.html?oneclick=true) [here,](http://pub41.ezboard.com/fthecitygatefrm9.showMessage?topicID=979.topic)[and here](http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/040930/2004093001.html) for instance) So I doubt this incident will make any difference to the image of US or coalition troops in Iraq ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/91 "2004-11-16T17:49:04Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Getting wounded on the battlefield does not magically turn you into a noncombatant and exempt you from enemy fire. Your choices are to surrender, fight or die. … right, he had surrendered… or did y ou miss that part? O\_o ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/92 "2004-11-16T18:33:39Z")
> [@TLC1](#): > > True, however I believe the contractors are hired to protect…not attack! Oh, well! That makes it all right then! :rolleyes: (this is my first use of the rolleyes in my SDMB career) ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/93 "2004-11-16T18:42:56Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > … right, he had surrendered… or did y ou miss that part? O\_o Was he faking dead or was he surrendering? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/94 "2004-11-16T18:45:37Z")
Perhaps he was bleeding in a potentially aggressive fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/95 "2004-11-16T18:48:21Z")
Is that a response to what I just posted?? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/96 "2004-11-16T18:51:30Z")
Better shoot him just to be sure, **Tigers2B1**. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/97 "2004-11-16T18:55:51Z")
IS THAT - supposed to be a response?? Look, whether he was surrendering or whether he was faking dead jjust might be material once the investigation begins. If after investigation the conclusions indicate that there were no mitigating factors, and the soldier murdered the insurgent with the requisite malicious mind, then he should be punished as a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/98 "2004-11-16T19:00:53Z")
Why don’t you fellas just give up the rope, get back on your horses, and go home — there ain’t going to be no lynching today - ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/99 "2004-11-16T19:06:07Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > IS THAT - supposed to be a response?? > > Look, whether he was surrendering or whether he was faking dead jjust might be material once the investigation begins. If after investigation the conclusions indicate that there were no mitigating factors, and the soldier murdered the insurgent with the requisite malicious mind, then he should be punished as a murderer. He had surrendered two days before and been disarmed. He was already a prisoner in US custody. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/100 "2004-11-16T19:16:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > He had surrendered two days before and been disarmed. He was already a prisoner in US custody. He was faking dead while in custody for two days or only when this particular soldier shows up? If for two days, that might create an imminent danger of burial. If at some point but not another – the question becomes why? If he had been in actual custody for those two days, as your post implies, and this soldier, knowing this, kills him without reason - than that is certainly material. I say - let the investigation occur - I know I know, it’s hard to wait that long - [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=6)