# Ouch...possible illegal killing of an insurgent in Fallujah. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985 "2004-11-16T02:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/161 "2004-11-17T14:28:24Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > This whole incident raises a few questions for me. If a soldier would knowingly do something like this infrnt of a camera, and we are not talking a hidden camera but an imbedded camera man, what do the soldiers without camera men around do out there? That was my exactly my first thought too, after seeing the film. There seemed to be a very casual atmosphere, like those marines had done or seen more of that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/162 "2004-11-17T15:59:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Iraqi populace is on the side of the insurgents. I don’t know about that, DtC. I would buy that some of the Sunnis are on the side of the insurgents. They have been in power for years and don’t want to be under the control of a Shia majority. Most of the Shittes and Kurds seem to be quite happy with the way things are going for them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/163 "2004-11-17T16:07:32Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > There is no evidence that he engaged in any more combat. There is no evidence to the contrary either…in fact, there is little ‘evidence’ at all at this point except the Marine shot the guy. A lot of you are REALLY leaping to conclusions based on some pretty flimsy ‘evidence’…on both sides of this issue. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/164 "2004-11-17T16:18:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, yeah? OK, smarty-pants, let’s say you’re married to Anne Coulter… Highly unlikely, as she opposes same-sex marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/165 "2004-11-17T16:18:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is no evidence that he engaged in any more combat. **treis** already posted the relevant parts from CNN. He even bolded it for you. Or are we back to the usual “anything that contradicts my prejudices doesn’t exist” nonsense? I suppose your definition of “supporting the troops” includes assuming they are guilty, no matter what and without considering any of the circumstances. Now all we need is some Kerry-equivalent telling the public that this kind of thing happened on a daily basis, and every serviceman in Iraq is guilty of it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/166 "2004-11-17T16:36:05Z")
I repeat, there is no evidence that he engaged in any more combat. No such evidence has been posted or bolded by anyone. There were reports that insurgents had retaken the mosque but there is no allegation that the prisoner in question took any part in any reported fire from the mosque. It’s highly unlikely that he would have been physically able to anyway since he had already been lying in his own blood for two days. Furthermore, the mosque had already been searched and rescured before the murderer showed up there. But it’s all irrelevant to my point anyway that _leaving wounded prisoners to rot is ITSELF a violation of the GC_. Thjis occurred _before_ any dubious reports about the mosque being reoccupied ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/167 "2004-11-17T16:38:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > There is no evidence to the contrary either…in fact, there is little ‘evidence’ at all at this point except the Marine shot the guy. A lot of you are REALLY leaping to conclusions based on some pretty flimsy ‘evidence’…on both sides of this issue. > > -XT On the contrary. There is indisputable photographic documentation of a cold blooded murder. What possible theory could excuse what’s on the film. Bitch is going to Leavenworth, man. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/168 "2004-11-17T16:41:55Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I don’t know about that, DtC. I would buy that some of the Sunnis are on the side of the insurgents. They have been in power for years and don’t want to be under the control of a Shia majority. Most of the Shittes and Kurds seem to be quite happy with the way things are going for them. Poll after poll shows that an overwhelming majority of Iraqis view US troops (correctly) as occupiers rather than liberators. Other polls show huge support for al Sadr. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/169 "2004-11-17T17:04:26Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > On the contrary. There is indisputable photographic documentation of a cold blooded murder. What possible theory could excuse what’s on the film. There is just no talking to you, is there? As to theories, several have been put forward in this thread alone. The fact you can’t accept them doesn’t automatically make them illegitimate. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/170 "2004-11-17T17:07:30Z")
Nothing has been presented which would be a viable legal defense. Stress is no defense. The meme about “booby-trapped bodies” is no legal defense. What’s left. Leavenworth, man. Big rocks into little rocks. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/171 "2004-11-17T17:13:24Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > * * * > > This is not some adventure movie made for 14 year olds. This is reality. In reality actions have consequences. What do you suppose the consequences of this and similar incidents might be? Do you suppose it might increase resentment toward the occupation? Do you suppose it might intensify resistance to that occupation. Do you suppose it increases the possibility that our children and grandchildren might have to serve a tour in the Iraqi Army of Occupation? And what is _reality_ as you define it? Our grandhildren serving a tour in Iraq? is that reality? Or is reality in fact our soldiers fighting a fanatical and suicidal enemy willing to kill even one US soldier and calling it a victory. These “insurgents” are willing to plow thru dozens of Iraqi civilians, men women and children, with a car bomb to get at a moving US convoy. They will send females to bomb US checkpoints. These people are so frustrated that they cant get at US soldiers, they shoot their own people instead. They put up white flags so they can regroup or snipe at US soldiers. Everyone knows that they use Mosques to fire at soldiers. They use schools to hide weapons and computers to spread their propaganda. To them every bomb that was dropped on Iraq has killed at least 4 children and 2 women. These people have kidnapped and have brutally killed innocents on video. Not unarmed, captured fighting men. These people have kidnapped, tortured and beheaded people who are helping give food to Iraqis, and they proudly display this atrocity in Al Jezzera. Repeatedly. They only reason they havent done it lately is because we kicked ass in Falluja (using the 14 year old movie theme) The US military are NOT policemen. They dont say “freeze or we will shoot” They determine who is a threat and then they eliminate that threat. A threat does not mean they are always armed, in good physical condition and have “threat” emblazoned on their front and back. A threat is ANY risk to the unit. Yes, it is shoot first ask questions later. A lot of the one thousand or more soldiers who have died in Iraq asked first and never got a chance to shoot. But here is the way I see how some of the people here spin this. Scenario A: US Soldier sees wounded insurgent at a mosque and determines that he is still alive. He calls a warning to his unit and shoots insurgent in the head, killing him. Later inspection finds that insurgent was unarmed. - OH MY GOD!! The bastards!! You cant DO THAT!! There is no moral, legal justifiable reason for anyone to shoot at unarmed and wounded captives. This is just a shining example of why we should not be in Iraq. This is horrible. If that guy was willing to do that on video, how many times has he done that before? and his buddies acted all the same. I guess they did the same thing too. Bastards!!\* Scenario B: US Soldier sees wounded insurgent at a mosque and determines that he is still alive. He calls a warning to his unit and inspects insurgent. The insurgent was rigged with a granade which went off, killing the US marine and wounding 3 other soldiers. one critically. - Well, dammit he shouldve known better. Hell, how many more soldiers have to be killed before we realize we shouldnt be in Iraq??! I support our troops and all but they are just getting killed right and left and there is no stopping these crazy bastards. This kinda of thing only leads to more killing. \* But I know the reality is that scenario B has already happened. We just never see the video clip of that. X~Slayer ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/172 "2004-11-17T17:14:30Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > Stress is no defense. COMBAT stress is no defense? Really? Where are you getting that from? > [@DtC](#): > > The meme about “booby-trapped bodies” is no legal defense. Really? Are you claiming that this ‘meme’ is false, i.e. that no actual bodies were booby trapped? Or are you claiming that the threat of such is no defense? And again…where are you getting this from that none of this is a defense? Hell, I’ve see lawyers use a woman having a period as a defense for murder DtC. Get real. > [@DtC](#): > > What’s left. Combat fatigue. Temporary insanity. Psychosis. Mental impairment. That the guy actually DID think he was under threat. Probably myriad more that the defense will think of that I haven’t. You need to give up this knee jerk hate man. YOu are definitely holding on too tight here and not thinking clearly. If a lawyer in the states can get a murder off on all manner of technicalities (or even real issues or problems with the prosecution, or real mental impairment, etc), there are certainly defenses for this marine, no? WE SIMPLY DON’T HAVE ALL THE FACTS AND 30 SECONDS OF VIDEO TAPE ARE NOT CONCLUSIVE. Or, just carry on DtC. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/173 "2004-11-17T17:39:20Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > COMBAT stress is no defense? Really? Where are you getting that from? Is it a defense? I think that a soldier who is wigged out due to stress should get a lesser sentence (though certainly not get off). Is that what’s actually done though. > [@](#): > > Really? Are you claiming that this ‘meme’ is false, i.e. that no actual bodies were booby trapped? Or are you claiming that the threat of such is no defense? I don’t get what people are getting at with the booby trapped body either. The man who was shot _wasn’t_ a dead body (well, not to start with), and even if he was booby trapped in a similar manner, it’s not like shooting him is going to make him less booby trapped. If anything, a bullet might hit the explosive and set it off. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/174 "2004-11-17T17:40:36Z")
Oh, there are defenses, and even if there weren’t, they would be found. Because they are necessary. Hell, Lt. Calley and Capt. Medina were convicted of multiple murder for the My Lai incident. You may rest assured that neither of these worthies spent any time in Leavenworth breaking rocks. But the conniptions and mid-air flips some of you are capable of indulging are preposterous. If, as you seem determined to claim, the bleeding corpse-to-be presented some threat, why did the Marine in question not stand away? Why didn’t he shout some warning? “Stand back, this guy is faking being dead, look out!” If a potential threat to himself or his comrades was his overiding concern, why is there no evidence of it? Did he broadcast some telepathic warning not seen or heard on the videotape? This soldier’s actions will have deadly effect on his own comrades! Insurgents who might have surrendered with some reasonable prospect of survival will now limn the question as: surrender and be killed, or go out in a blaze of Allah’s glory and take some of them with me. And the very same chorus will be here again saying “See? I told you so, I told you they were suicidal fanatics, look at how they’re behaving!” If the soldier in question had thrown a hand grenade into a mess hall, he most likely would have had less damaging effect on his comrades in arms, or on the cause for which we are ostensibly fighting. Madness. Oh, what a lovely war! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/175 "2004-11-17T18:07:07Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > COMBAT stress is no defense? Really? Where are you getting that from? Where are you getting the notion that it _is_ a defense? Cite? Show me where it says in the UCMJ that battle stress is a legal defense for murder? > [@](#): > > Really? Are you claiming that this ‘meme’ is false, i.e. that no actual bodies were booby trapped? Or are you claiming that the threat of such is no defense? I’m claiming the latter. I’m also calling bullshit on the argument that anyone really thought _this_ guy was booby trapped. I’m also saying again that shooting a booby trapped body does not make it any safer. > [@](#): > > Combat fatigue. Temporary insanity. Psychosis. Mental impairment. That the guy actually DID think he was under threat. Probably myriad more that the defense will think of that I haven’t. This all boils down to an insanity defense. I guess that’s probably an option available to his attorneys. Let them prove it. > [@](#): > > You need to give up this knee jerk hate man. “Knee jerk hate?” Hate of what? > [@](#): > > YOu are definitely holding on too tight here and not thinking clearly. If a lawyer in the states can get a murder off on all manner of technicalities (or even real issues or problems with the prosecution, or real mental impairment, etc), there are certainly defenses for this marine, no? WE SIMPLY DON’T HAVE ALL THE FACTS AND 30 SECONDS OF VIDEO TAPE ARE NOT CONCLUSIVE. The military justice system is more hard ass than the civilian system. And we DO have the facts. We have it on video. The act on video is a murder. Unless this guy’s lawyers can prove he was legally insane he committed a war crime under the letter of the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/176 "2004-11-17T18:33:02Z")
**DtC** : It’s really as simple as some of us following the precept of “innocent until proven guilty in a court of law”. If you want to say “I, \*\*DtC \*\*think the guy is guilty”, no one would argue with you. I lean that way myself. When you assert that the guy \*\*IS \*\*guilty, you are essentially bypassing the whole judicial process. If it is, as you say, a \*\*\*fact \*\*\*that the guy is guilty, would you have a problem with the him being executed w/o a trial? If not, then what is the trial for? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/177 "2004-11-17T18:35:36Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > Where are you getting the notion that it is a defense? Cite? Show me where it says in the UCMJ that battle stress is a legal defense for murder? :dubious: Google “UCMJ Battle Fatigue Stress Defense”…there are 221 hits. Knock yourself out DtC. Just on the first page I see quite a few btw. > [@DtC](#): > > I’m claiming the latter. I’m also calling bullshit on the argument that anyone really thought this guy was booby trapped. I’m also saying again that shooting a booby trapped body does not make it any safer. You know this…how exactly? That the body was neither booby trapped (which seems unlikely to me as well as far as the guys reaction), nor that this marine thought the guy was potentially armed or dangerous? You get all this from the video tape? Because I watched the same tape and I can’t draw any definite conclusions from it. > [@DtC](#): > > This all boils down to an insanity defense. I guess that’s probably an option available to his attorneys. Let them prove it. You claimed there was no defense…I’m merely pointing out that there is ALWAYS a defense and your own prejudices are blinding you. Certainly they will have to prove whatever claim they make…unlike you (and the rest of us) who can simply talk out our ass as if we REALLY know whats going on. > [@DtC](#): > > “Knee jerk hate?” Hate of what? Of anything that remotely touches on ‘Bush’ or the Iraq war in any way. > [@DtC](#): > > The military justice system is more hard ass than the civilian system. Oh, I know it having served in the Navy (and having gone before my quota of Captains Masts). However, just because its more hard assed doesn’t mean that ‘insanity’ defenses are thrown out. In addition, unlike a civilian court, a military court DOES understand the effects of combat and stress on an individual so might be willing to give it more thought and understanding than the average SDMB poster. > [@DtC](#): > > And we DO have the facts. We have it on video. The act on video is a murder. Unless this guy’s lawyers can prove he was legally insane he committed a war crime under the letter of the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ. We most certainly do not have all the facts. The video tape isn’t the sum total of all the facts of this case…again, you are letting your prejudice close your mind here IMO. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/178 "2004-11-17T18:42:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > **DtC** : It’s really as simple as some of us following the precept of “innocent until proven guilty in a court of law”. If you want to say “I, \*\*DtC \*\*think the guy is guilty”, no one would argue with you. I lean that way myself. When you assert that the guy \*\*IS \*\*guilty, you are essentially bypassing the whole judicial process. > > If it is, as you say, a \*\*\*fact \*\*\*that the guy is guilty, would you have a problem with the him being executed w/o a trial? If not, then what is the trial for? Very correct and DtC should agree… one thing is opinion. Another is video evidence that points to probable guilt. I will assert though that the guy **IS** guilty of being stupid and reckless. When reporters and cameras are nearby you should be careful. Or shoot them first… :eek: (In the video… does the soldier step forward to aim the rifle or does he just raise the rifle ? Haven’t seen it yet. If he steps forward… then I can’t see the iraqi being a “threat”.) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/179 "2004-11-17T18:46:12Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If it is, as you say, a \*\*\*fact \*\*\*that the guy is guilty, would you have a problem with the him being executed w/o a trial? If not, then what is the trial for? Well even agreeing with you… the irony of the fact that the wounded iraqi was judged, sentenced and executed right there is quite morbid. The US military are handing out “death sentences” on a daily basis and probably without any positive effect for Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985/180 "2004-11-17T19:08:07Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Bullshit. If you are stupid enough to wander around without your rifle, that doesn’t exempt you from enemy fire. > > If I have a clear shot at an enemy soldier, I’m going to take it. If the soldier is unarmed or running away, that’s his problem. > > A soldier is not a police officer, he is not required to determine that his target is armed and poses an immediate threat to someone. His job is to kill the enemy. \He’s coming right for us!\ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouch-possible-illegal-killing-of-an-insurgent-in-fallujah/274985.md?page=10)