But we don’t know that that is actually how the algorithm works in real life with its numerous variables. AND you left out my statement that IF the airline does lose money on a skiplagged algorithm that that’s on them for leaving in that loophole in their algorithm so not my problem.
I seriously don’t understand how airlines gat a pass for complaining about when a customer doesn’t get screwed over. I hear about how Spirit sucks for having discounted fares but nickle-and-diming you on bag fees. I just paid an extra $280 for a full-fare Delta round trip ticket just on bag fees. And that doesn’t include the extra money I paid for seats and if it is not non-stop you pay for seats on each leg. So boo-fucking-hoo that those businessmen figured out how to save $50 flying to DC using the airline’s own mathematics against them.
If that’s your standard, then I’m really not sure what anyone in this thread can do for you, unless someone here works for the airlines in a route planning capacity. We have provided numerous illustrations, from simple to complex, outlining ways in which permissive skiplagging can result in lost profits and even harm to other consumers, but if you’re going to reject such illustrations out of hand because none can establish what is actually going on in each instance with metaphysical certainty, then it kind of feels like it’s not worth expending further effort along these lines.
Deeper Questions: Should a company be permitted to penalize you for not using a service you paid for?
If the contract that they wrote and you cannot negotiate said they could cut off your leg if you miss a leg of the trip you booked (a leg for a leg - get it?), then it’s OK because it’s in the contract?
When it sold you that service at a discount specifically contingent on you using the full service, and not just the portion of it you secretly wanted? Yeah. That’s how contracts work.
I think we can be pretty confident that something like this scenario is how it works (although obviously more complicated with different numbers because life isn’t a toy problem) because the only way that an airlines pricing its flights in a manner that allows skiplagging makes sense from its point of view is if different passengers have different price points, and given the price competitiveness of the airline industry they are going to shave those margins pretty damn close.
There’s nothing in the contract about that. And in fact if you don’t go to LA that day, you can go some other future day on the same ticket you already bought. Despite the fact you not traveling caused that potentially saleable seat to go empty. Or turn it in for a full refund.
Or, you can buy a cheaper ticket that has a surrender penalty for a refund. Or a cheaper one that you can use later, but only on Tue-Thu. Or one that is only good on the overnight “redeye” flights.
It’s an (admittedly messy) form of a la carte pricing, where the features are all over the map, as creative as bookies coming up with prop bets.
The Feds could re-regulate the industry to the point where airlines could go when and where they want and charge what they want. But the law might require that every seat on a particular flight would have to sell for the exact same price. No discounting, no special features for frequent fliers, no hidden fees. There is one price for any seat on flight 123 on Sep 15th from ABC to DEF and everybody pays that one price.
That could be done. We don’t require that Coca Cola sell their soda for one price at every store and restaurant in the land. We don’t even require that every outlet of McDonalds or every Safeway grocery store, sell their Coke for the same price of their choosing.
I don’t think the public would like the result.
Yes it’s a game. A dumb game. But the economy is full of dumb games where different parts of a product line cross subsidize other parts of the same product line. Why were / are Buicks more expensive than Chevys when they’re the same car except for a couple of decals?
Did you violate the contract? (the answer here is yes) Then I guess it depends on what the penalties are for the civil breaking of a contract.
For example, they can choose to not sell you tickets in the future, or sue you for damages. They can’t chop off a limb because that’s not a normal recourse for simple contract violation.
Again, missing where I said that even if that is true - so what? A person could show us the exact algorithm an airline used to determine pricing on a flight that could be skiplagged and demonstrate that they lose money if it were skiplagged by 5 people and it wouldn’t make any difference that writing a algorithm that can be gamed that way is a problem for the airlines and not the customer.
And your argument leaves out one very important point about how airlines work. Just like they overbook and are fairly certain of the number of people that will miss the flight, there are times where they need to spend money when more people show up then they anticipate but despite that, overall they make more money through overbooking. I am sure that the algorithm knows that this skiplaggable flight will (on average) be skiplagged by X people (and it’s a very small number limited by not having the ability to check bags, not many people looking to skiplag, etc.) but overall at those algorithm-derived prices the airline will still make a profit. So yes, in this instance the airline loses a potential $100 but over time using that system they will make many multiples of $100 in profit.
A retail version of this same phenominon can be found in the soft drink aisle at the local grocery. If you pick up a 20 oz coke at the front of the store, it will put you back $2.25, but in the soft drink section you can pick up a 2 liter bottle on sale for $1.25. Does in make sense from a value of goods perspective? No. But from a price point perspective it makes perfect sense, people are willing to spend more on a quick impulse purchase than they would on a grocery item. Still going up to the self check register and scanning and paying for a 2 liter bottle but walking out with a 20 oz is not kosher.
Yes, and their solution to the problem is to penalize the skiplagger to the extent legally/contractually permitted (e.g., cancelling frequent flier miles, barring future flights, etc.).
The contract says “if you do A, you get penalty B”. So you do A, and when you receive penalty B you find that unethical? Perhaps a look in the mirror is in order.
If you don’t like the contract, don’t buy it. But buying it and claiming some ethical right to pick and choose which parts you’ll abide by and which you won’t is not really an ethical position.
Depending on how bored I am over the next couple of days, I may look into the contract law aspects. Because the flier doesn’t actually have a lot of options, other than to deal with the airlines, who write the contracts in their own interests.
I’m just not sure it is entirely cut-and-dried that the powerful party who drafted the fineprint simply wins, if they are not able to show some damages. But, I was a pretty crappy law student. And what is right and fair generally doesn’t necessarily have all that much to do with legal outcomes.
Believe me, I think the whole airline ticketing thing is a dumb system that’s evolved into a crooked crap game in a back room.
And yes, unconscionable self-serving terms in adhesion contracts don’t (usually) get much traction in court. Be interested to hear your thoughts and any cases you happen to dredge up.
I know just enough about airline route profit analysis and about contract law to be dangerous.
Yeah, if i had the choice of buying a ticket that allowed me to get off partway, or a slightly cheaper ticket that didn’t, then i would agree that customers chose that contact. But airline customers have little choice, and if all the major carriers are requiring that you use every segment you buy, it honestly sounds like an antitrust situation to me.
I agree that it’s unethical for the carriers to enforce this sort of arbitrary rule to maximize their pricing leverage over their customers.
But…you do have the choice, because you can just buy the ticket to the partway city. That’s exactly what it is, a more expensive ticket that allows you to get off there!
The unethical part (at least one of them) is that the airlines are not held to the same standard. If I don’t fulfill my end of the itinerary then I lose miles that are worth money to the airline. What is the airline’s penalty when the don’t fulfill their part of the itinerary like flying me to Chicago at 6:25pm on Friday? Nothing!
And what’s that insult about looking in the mirror. You think I’m unethical for supporting skiplagging?
I’d be especially interested in the claim that if we contract that I do X and you do Y and I don’t do X like I’m supposed to, you can take away Z that has nothing to do with X or Y. I get that if I contract to go from New York to Los Angeles via Chicago and I don’t do the Chicago to Los Angeles leg that I don’t earn those miles but how is it that you also get to take away the 50,000 miles I’ve earned over the last three years?
Welcome to Cad Rental Cars. I charge $200 if you drive the car less than 100 miles and $150 if you drive the car less than 200 miles. You want the 200 mile option? Great choice.
Later when you return the car: Woah sir, you only drove this 82 miles. You broke the contract so we are revoking all of your loyalty points which doesn’t matter since you are banned from ever renting from us again and we are going to sue you for the money we lost - all $50 of it.
