# Ouija Boards - I used to think it was bull until...... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528 "2009-02-19T09:46:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/261 "2009-02-20T20:42:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you had been paying attention you would know I don’t believe in Satan or demons and such. **Kanicbird,** what of this? **lekatt** has been givin a gift — all knowledge of the afterlife and spiritual world, and he knows for a fact that there is no such thing as demons, satan or any other sort of evil entity. Yet, you claim to do warfare against such things all the time. How can this be? You are both obviously right, since you have both experienced “God” in a very real way, and have faith that cannot be shaken. So, how is this paradox unraveled? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/262 "2009-02-20T21:20:28Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > In the spirit world events happen simultaneously. So there is no past, future, time, and space, and no calendar. But if this is the case, how can a seer “[look into the future and see some event coming in your life](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10849444&postcount=144)?” That is, how do they know it’s your life, and not the life of some person on the other side of the world? How do they know it’s your future, and not your past? How do they even know you exist? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/263 "2009-02-20T21:46:32Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The spirit world has no lottery, no gambling, no booze, no drugs, no sex, no justice system, no lawyers, no firemen, nor anything else that spirits have no need for. What justice that is necessary is built in, it happens automatically. As I said, telling me that there is no lotto in the spirit world is a stupid and obvious way to try and avoid having to face the contradiction in your statements. It is not a tactic of the intellectually honest. Question 1: Can the spirits ever detect and comment on the physical world? Question 2: Do the spirits sense the past, present and future all at the same time? Question 3: If the answer to Question 1 is false, how can they detect that you’re using the Ouija board? Question 4: If the answer to Question 2 is true, can the spirits report to you what the condition of living people’s spirits will be in when they die, and everything they will do at any future point? Question 5: If the answer to Question 2 is true, how can the spirits tell that you’re trying to communicate with them _now_, and not answer questions you ask in the past or future, which is all the same to them? Question 6: If the answer to both Question 1 and Question 2 are true, can the spirits detect the future state of lotteries in the physical world, and comment on them now? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/264 "2009-02-20T22:03:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The spirit world has no lottery, no gambling, no booze, no drugs, no sex,… The spirit world is in Utah? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/265 "2009-02-20T22:07:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The spirit world has no lottery, no gambling, no booze, no drugs, no sex, no justice system, no lawyers, no firemen, nor anything else that spirits have no need for. What justice that is necessary is built in, it happens automatically. You already knew that no one was talking about a lottery in the spirit world and not this one, which was why you answered that spirits can’t see the future, and not that lotteries don’t exist. You’re clearly avoiding the contradictory statements you made by pretending you could have even possibly thought anyone was talking about a lottery in the spirit world. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/266 "2009-02-20T22:07:31Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > How could you possible know how to interpret what you believe is a spiritual interaction? With Satan or demons always out there to try and trick you, how can you ever be sure where it’s coming from. IMHO The spiritual world is far different then our physical world, we try to relate things as best as we can, but it’s not going to be a exact fit. You may experience something like a tiger, another person may describe it as a wolf. It is the closes match we know of that we use. Demons do try to deceive us mainly by telling partial truths, that is why the Holy Spirit is needed to discern the truth. By the Holy Spirit and the Word of God the lies can be uncovered. > [@](#): > > Not only that, doesn’t it bother you in the slightest that every single person (that has faith) has their very own interpretation of spiritual encounters and what they might mean? Not at all. First each person will interpret it differently because there are really no direct corresponding objects so we have to use the closest matches. Second mature believers who have the Holy Spirit can disagree on issues, in time God will make His truth clear and lead both into agreement. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/267 "2009-02-20T22:08:08Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > The spirit world is in Utah? It’s a good thing he didn’t say the spirit world had no television, or there’d be no reason to go there at all. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/268 "2009-02-21T00:04:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You didn’t answer my question. Why someday, why not now? > > Why did God create Satan in the first place. “Free will” (aside from the fact that it’s conceptual nonsense and logically impossible) excuses nothing on God’s part because God already knew what the choice would be. Evil can’t exist unless God wants it to exist. Why I wish I could answer that, OK. Yes God does allow evil to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/269 "2009-02-21T00:07:25Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Given your assumptions, what if Lucifer wins? I mean, what is the big deal if it is predetermined that God will win? It seems to me that the reason to be worried - for supporters of God - is only if Lucifer might win. Otherwise, why care? Because who he might take with him. If Lucifer wins, just imagine a world with no love. Yes I know there is a lot of hate already ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/270 "2009-02-21T00:08:58Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Thanks so much for the informative reply. The level of question required an answer on same level ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/271 "2009-02-21T00:14:06Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Because who he might take with him. If Lucifer wins, just imagine a world with no love. > > Yes I know there is a lot of hate already So, do theists really believe that they don’t have emotions? Because I know that love is an emotion that I can feel, or not feel, depending on my own thoughts or perspective about the person I’m having the emotion for. No god or devil loves for me or drains love from me, because if they did, they’d do it independent of my opinions. I’d love everyone or I’d love noone, because the demon in control would be the same in all cases. As that’s not the case, I know that I do my loving myself, and don’t need some silly diety to do it for me. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/272 "2009-02-21T00:16:39Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So, do theists really believe that they don’t have emotions? Please don’t generalise about us theists based on postings in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/273 "2009-02-21T00:22:20Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Please don’t generalise about us theists based on postings in this thread. Fine - anybody who doesn’t hold the belief needn’t defend it. (I had to say that?) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/274 "2009-02-21T00:34:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why does this seem like what Satan might say: > “Yes, it’s just a toy, there are no demon, just people with their hands on the planchette.” You can’t ever seem to be wrong with an argument like this, even if you are in fact wrong. If it looks like you’re right, you’re right If it looks like you’re wrong, Satan switched things around, so you’re right. If you were in fact wrong, how would you become aware of it? ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/275 "2009-02-21T00:47:09Z")
If the spirit world is timeless, but the physical world has linear time… then somewhere, in the spirit world, is my deceased spirit. Right? Assuming I die someday, in the earthly future, my spirit will reside in the spirit world, which has all times at the one moment. So… if I contact the spirit world, can I contact my own spirit? The implications in the field of selfcest would be revolutionary… ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/276 "2009-02-21T01:31:29Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > But if this is the case, how can a seer “[look into the future and see some event coming in your life](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10849444&postcount=144)?” > > That is, how do they know it’s your life, and not the life of some person on the other side of the world? How do they know it’s your future, and not your past? How do they even know you exist? Why is this so difficult for you. If a seer can look into the future and see an event coming for you. This has nothing to do this the spirit world. The seer is human and can see the event, but the event may change due to the changes you make in your life after the event was seen. That is what I said. Now if someone from the spirit world would tell you an event is coming, the same thing applies. Larger events have a better chance of happening, and then there is the chance if the person from the spirit world is your guide that he may be guiding you into the event. You are not going to use logic to understand all the happenings in the two dimensions. When you are in the spirit world the events make sense. From the physical they don’t make sense. I would go on but most on this board are only interested in themselves and what they already believe. So it is not fruitful. I am finished. ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/277 "2009-02-21T01:51:34Z")
**lekatt** I know you said you’re finished but before you go… On the topic of NDEs… [wikipedia says](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDE) the following symptoms are commonly associated with the phenomenon, and these seem to mesh with what’s been described here… > [@wikipedia](#): > > 1. A very unpleasant sound/noise is the first sensory impression to be noticed (R. Moody: Life after Life); > 2. A sense of being dead; > 3. Pleasant emotions; calmness and serenity; > 4. An out-of-body experience; a sensation of floating above one’s own body and seeing the surrounding area; > 5. Floating up a blue tunnel with a strong, bright light or garden at the end; > 6. Meeting deceased relatives or spiritual figures; > 7. Encountering a being of light, or a light (often interpreted as being the deity or deities they personally believe in); > 8. Being given a life review (the “life-flashing-before-your-eyes” phenomenon); > 9. Reaching a border or boundary; > 10. A feeling of being returned to the body, often accompanied by a reluctance. > 11. Feeling of warmth even though naked. How is any of this explained by supernatural forces? When you are in that situation, your brain is starved of oxygen. When your brain is starved of oxygen, neurons either shut down or start firing chaotically. I submit to you, the temporal lobe, which contains the hippocampus. **1. A very unpleasant sound/noise is the first sensory impression to be noticed;** Hearing is also the first thing neurologists will tell you is associated with the temporal lobe, both low level auditory processing (hearing sounds) and high level auditory processing (speech). So you hear a noise? Colour me unsurprised. **2. A sense of being dead** What does this even mean? Things I would associate with this (out of body experience, lack of senses, calmness) are covered elsewhere, like… **3. Pleasant emotions; calmness and serenity** Oxygen deprivation - pilots experience it under g-forces. **4. An out-of-body experience; a sensation of floating above one’s own body and seeing the surrounding area** Lack of sensory input, caused by oxygen deprivation. Lying down doesn’t feel like floating, because you can feel the bed beneath you. Take away that sense, it feel like you’re floating. Add to that the fact that your sense of balance is askew, for the same reason, and it feels like you’re floating. **5. Floating up a blue tunnel with a strong, bright light or garden at the end** Oxygen deprivation - pilots experience it under g-forces. This is well documented - the tunnel effect is caused by randomly firing neurons, the bright light is the same, the garden is a halluciantion. And guess which part of the brain is (partly) responsible for high level visual processing? **6. Meeting deceased relatives or spiritual figures;** Hallucination caused by, guess what, oxygen deprivation. If you feel your body slipping away, your senses shutting down, some part of you is going to start thinking about your own mortality. Little wonder the halluciantion subject will match your train of thought. Point to add: not everyone meets anyone, and sometimes they meet people who are still alive. Want to know why? HALLUCINATION As I mentioned above, the temporal lobe is used for high level visual processing, as in recognition of faces and scenery. Starting to see a pattern here? **7. Encountering a being of light, or a light (often interpreted as being the deity or deities they personally believe in)** See point five. Some sense are still coming through in all this oxygen deprivation, so the image of someone standing over you, coupled with the oxygen deprivation, causes a being of light to appear. Either that or it is a full blown hallucination. **8. Being given a life review (the “life-flashing-before-your-eyes” phenomenon)** No mystery - the hippocampus is closely bound tot he temporal lobe, and together they are responsible for all your memory regulation. Misfiring neurons bring old memeories to the surface, whether you wanted them to or not. **9. Reaching a border or boundary** I don’t know what this sensation would feel like. If it is like you were floating but you suddenly stop, it would either be your sense of balance returning, or your sense of balance disappearing entirely. **10. A feeling of being returned to the body, often accompanied by a reluctance.** Wow. Isn’t that the same as saying feeling is returning, and your sense of balance is returning? Big mystery. **11. Feeling of warmth even though naked.** Hippocampus is responsible for temperature regulation. Some other part of the brain is responsible for temperature sensing. Not addressed is the feeling of universal love and acceptance, but did you know that oxygen deprivation makes you high? A similar high to that felt by religious people, that one which makes you feel like you can sense the very heartbeat of the universe around you? That the universe is intrinsically good, and you are loved, and life is good? That feeling doesn’t come from God, at least not directly - it is built into the human brain. And would you look at that? All symptoms of NDE can be explained through basic neurology - in fact, most of it is isolated to the same part of the brain! There is an elegance to that, don’t you think? But you go ahead and tell yourselves that your misfiring neurons were a touch from heaven, and that science could never, _ever_ explain it away. Frankly I don’t expect much more from you. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/278 "2009-02-21T02:14:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO The spiritual world is far different then our physical world, we try to relate things as best as we can, but it’s not going to be a exact fit. You may experience something like a tiger, another person may describe it as a wolf. It is the closes match we know of that we use. > > Demons do try to deceive us mainly by telling partial truths, that is why the Holy Spirit is needed to discern the truth. By the Holy Spirit and the Word of God the lies can be uncovered. > > Not at all. First each person will interpret it differently because there are really no direct corresponding objects so we have to use the closest matches. Second mature believers who have the Holy Spirit can disagree on issues, in time God will make His truth clear and lead both into agreement. The thing is, all this spiritual stuff is in your head. You don’t physically SEE demons, nor do you audibly HEAR the voice of the Holy Spirit. It all comes from the internal monologue that is constantly in your head. How do you know, when you feel or hear something, you’re just not picking and choosing what you _want_ to be the voice of God (or dismiss it as the devil)? Do you even give a modicum of credit to the possibility that it’s _all_ just your own thoughts, and nothing else? Also, can you address post #261, please? ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/279 "2009-02-21T02:22:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So, do theists really believe that they don’t have emotions? Because I know that love is an emotion that I can feel, or not feel, depending on my own thoughts or perspective about the person I’m having the emotion for. No god or devil loves for me or drains love from me, because if they did, they’d do it independent of my opinions. I’d love everyone or I’d love noone, because the demon in control would be the same in all cases. > > As that’s not the case, I know that I do my loving myself, and don’t need some silly diety to do it for me. Are you asking do spirits have emtions? Yes and I believe the emotion they exibit is not Love. Yes God does love you even if you do not believe in him, or you hate him. It does not depend on your emotion. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/280 "2009-02-21T02:35:52Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Are you asking do spirits have emtions? Yes and I believe the emotion they exibit is not Love.. It doesn’t matter what you believe, because you have never in fact met a spirit to glean such information. If you feel you have, I argue that it was all in your imagination. You believe in God, that’s fine… as an agnostic, I can accept that. But that doesn’t automatically give you all the information and authority to speak on behalf of this “spirit world.” Not you, nor **kanicbird,** or even **lekatt.** Nothing any of you have put forth so far have been a convincing argument as to the existence of this realm. What’s more, none of you can seem to fully agree with each other. So, as an agnostic, who should I believe if I wanted to be converted to your own, contrived brand of faith? **lekatt** and his claim of visiting the afterlife in a dream, thereby gaining all knowledge, yet conveniently forgetting the important stuff? **kanicbird** and his interpretation of demons and the Holy Spirit constantly pulling us this way and that so that we may do their bidding, like pulling all the curtains and locking ourselves in the house for over 3 days? Or yours? Or someone else’s? It’s arrogant piousness at work. You should all be ashamed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528.md?page=15)