# Ouija Boards - I used to think it was bull until...... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528 "2009-02-19T09:46:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/301 "2009-02-21T13:22:28Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > The thing is, all this spiritual stuff is in your head. You don’t physically SEE demons, nor do you audibly HEAR the voice of the Holy Spirit. It all comes from the internal monologue that is constantly in your head. How do you know, when you feel or hear something, you’re just not picking and choosing what you _want_ to be the voice of God (or dismiss it as the devil)? Do you even give a modicum of credit to the possibility that it’s _all_ just your own thoughts, and nothing else? > > Also, can you address post #261, please? The Holy Spirit has allowed me to see demons on occasion in visions and in real time interposed in our time/space and I have had many spiritual experiences both on the side of God and before that Satan. I have also had many spiritual dreams, but those seem to be discredited here, to the detriment of many people. The experiences have the physical presents of another entity, sometimes radiating such strong emotions it is beyond human capability. This board likes proof, and these entities have proven themselves real to me, by among other things predicting the future, but no lotto numbers :D. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/302 "2009-02-21T16:08:02Z")
> [@AllWalker](#): > > Care to give me the gist of this video, anyone? I’m on an internet plan that discourages watching fifteen minute videos. This video is a small documentary of Pam Reynolds surgery. The surgeon is present who done the surgery and Pam. They are talking about the near death experience Pam had during the surgery. The surgeon is verifing Pam’s experience. Pam had the blood removed from her head in order to fix an aneurysm in her brain. She was without blood in her head for the hour it took to fix the problem. It is strong evidence of consciousness living after the death of the brain and body. Try to see it if you can. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/303 "2009-02-21T17:25:25Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > This video is a small documentary of Pam Reynolds surgery. The surgeon is present who done the surgery and Pam. They are talking about the near death experience Pam had during the surgery. The surgeon is verifing Pam’s experience. Pam had the blood removed from her head in order to fix an aneurysm in her brain. She was without blood in her head for the hour it took to fix the problem. It is strong evidence of consciousness living after the death of the brain and body. Try to see it if you can. Not exactly how it happened, **lekatt**. [This wiki site contains a more accurate time-line of the procedure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds%27_NDE), and a more reasonable explanation of what might have happened, sans mysticism. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/304 "2009-02-21T20:45:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not exactly how it happened, **lekatt**. [This wiki site contains a more accurate time-line of the procedure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds%27_NDE), and a more reasonable explanation of what might have happened, sans mysticism. Just anyone can write in the Wikipedia, I think I will trust the chief surgeon who performed the operation and was there every minute of time, rather than someone who thinks he knows more than the people who had first-hand experienced of the event. Some day skeptics will overcome their denial. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/305 "2009-02-21T21:27:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Just anyone can write in the Wikipedia So what if anyone can write in Wikipedia? What’s there that seems like lies? > [@](#): > > When Reynolds heard someone say her veins were too small, medical personnel were apparently still connecting her to the heart-lung machine. At this point she was merely under general anesthesia (which can quite often fail to render a patient completely unconscious as well as causing dysphoric effects including confusion about ones position in their body).[1] See the little 1 at the end? Numbers are for references given at the bottom of the article. All of the section titled “Critical” has references to back up the claims. > [@lekatt](#): > > I think I will trust the chief surgeon who performed the operation and was there every minute of time, rather than someone who thinks he knows more than the people who had first-hand experienced of the event. Dr. Spetzler: > [@](#): > > I don’t have an explanation for it. I don’t know how it’s possible for it to happen, considering the physiological state she’s in. At the same time, I have seen so many things that I can’t explain, that I don’t want to be so arrogant as to be able say that there’s no way it can happen. > [@lekatt](#): > > Some day skeptics will overcome their denial. Skeptics are skeptical of outrageous claims, not in denial. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/306 "2009-02-21T21:44:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Holy Spirit has allowed me to see demons on occasion in visions and in real time interposed in our time/space and I have had many spiritual experiences both on the side of God and before that Satan. I have also had many spiritual dreams, but those seem to be discredited here, to the detriment of many people. The experiences have the physical presents of another entity, sometimes radiating such strong emotions it is beyond human capability. Are you sure you’re not Rebecca Brown? ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/307 "2009-02-21T23:41:42Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It is strong evidence of consciousness living after the death of the brain and body. Try to see it if you can. I’m sorry, I can’t see it. How do you know she saw these things? Um, mayber because she TOLD people? But how could she when she died? Maybe this wasn’t the “death of the brain and body” but something rather close to it? Her consciousness did not linger after death, as she did not die. I know the ‘D’ in NDE stands for ‘death’ but what does the ‘N’ mean? Clinically she might have been dead, but “clinically dead” is just a reasonable guess. Try to see it if you can. Now, I’m going to work of the wiki description of events - if you feel wiki has misreported the timeline or what she described, please correct me. > [@wiki](#): > > Reynolds’ NDE begins. She hears a natural D. It feels like the sound pulls her out of her body. She looks down and sees several things in the operating room. She feels very aware and her vision is more focused and clearer than normal. She notices that her head is shaved in another way than she expected. She sees the ‘saw thing’ (bone saw). It looks like an electric toothbrush, has a dent or groove at the top where the saw connects to the handle and it has interchangeable blades which are placed in what looks like a socket wrench case. She hears the saw crank up, but doesn’t see where it is being used on. It hums at a relatively high pitch and then suddenly goes ‘Brrrrrrrr’. She is under general anesthesia at this point. Apart from the fact there is a hole in her skull, she is fine and dandy. Not an NDE, yet. > [@](#): > > Reynolds hears a female voice saying that her veins and arteries are very small. Happens to people under anesthesia all the time, whether they are being cut up or not. Anesthesia isn’t perfect. But now we get to the blood draining bit: > [@](#): > > Reynolds feels like she is being pulled, but not against her will. She is going on her own accord because she wants to go. She feels like going through a tunnel vortex. She comes into a bright light. She begins to discern several figures, including a grandmother and an uncle. They stop her from going further because else she would not be able to go back into her body. **Being pulled:** lack of sensory input/balance. Ever felt dizzy? Feels like you’re being pulled. Ever felt dizzy while lying down, doped up and your brain is oxygen starved? **Tunnel vortex:** Classic symptom. Pilots get it under g-forces during brown outs or black outs. **Bright light:** Again, pilots. **Meets people:** Are these relatives even dead? Doesn’t say. Doesn’t matter, either. Hallucination caused by lack of blood flow to temporal lobe. **Stops being pulled:** As I speculated in my other giant post, either sense of balance returning, or the sense of balance shutting down entirely. > [@](#): > > The deceased relatives seem to be feeding Reynolds, not with food but with something sparkly. She feels like being nurtured and made strong. Sparkly? Come on. I’ve addressed this. As for feeling strong, hallucination or senses shutting down further. If your body feels weak, then you start to lose sensation, it can appear as though your strength is returning. Until you try to sit up, that is - but she can’t do that during surgery, so she can’t tell. > [@](#): > > Reynolds’ uncle takes her back through the end of the tunnel. She sees her body but doesn’t want to go in. It looks dead and she is scared of it. Then her uncle pushes her. The tunnel seems to push her and her body seems to pull her. When she goes back into her body it feels like diving into a pool of ice water. Oh, an out of body experience. You mean, the phenomenon that can be induced by direct brain stimulation? That is either a result of your spirit taking a walk, or by discord between your visual and tactile senses? I’ll pass. > [@](#): > > Reynolds regains consciousness and hears the song Hotel California being played. Urgh. I’d rather stay dead. Questions? Comments? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/308 "2009-02-21T23:42:08Z")
K-bird, how did you become convinced that spirits/demons communicate through Ouija boards? The Bible doesn’t mention Ouija boards as far as I know. There’s certainly people who’ve claimed to speak to spirits through Ouija boards. How did you come to believe them? Do you have personal experience? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/309 "2009-02-21T23:56:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The hardest part for some is people not believing your experience is real, it makes one feel isolated or worse, makes you feel that you are mentally ill because everyone tells you it’s not real. The problem is, it’s exactly the same for people who _are_ mentally ill - it’s real to them, and they feel bad because everyone says it isn’t - can you see the problem? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/310 "2009-02-22T01:02:36Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > K-bird, how did you become convinced that spirits/demons communicate through Ouija boards? The Bible doesn’t mention Ouija boards as far as I know. > > There’s certainly people who’ve claimed to speak to spirits through Ouija boards. How did you come to believe them? Do you have personal experience? They don’t (rarely) use the board itself, but the person is using the board as a focusing device, the demon is communicating with the person. I believe them because I use to be involved with contact with spirit guides, aka demons. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/311 "2009-02-22T01:06:35Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The problem is, it’s exactly the same for people who _are_ mentally ill - it’s real to them, and they feel bad because everyone says it isn’t - can you see the problem? Innocent till proven guilty. Can you imagine how damaging and frustrating and what mental torment you would be in if you could see things that others could not? The damage you could do to a person telling them what is really happening is not real, the mental torment you would put this person in, you would be the one causing the damage. IMHO very sadly many people have seen the spiritual, have totally normal functioning minds but were made mentally ill by people trying to convince that they are mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/312 "2009-02-22T01:19:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO very sadly many people have seen the spiritual, have totally normal functioning minds but were made mentally ill by people trying to convince that they are mentally ill. I have lost all inclination to [del]beat my head against a wall[/del] debate in this thread any longer, so I am just reading for entertainment value at this point. Thank you for not disappointing me. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/313 "2009-02-22T01:36:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Innocent till proven guilty. I’m not sure if anyone _is_ trying to prove you ‘guilty’ of mental illness, but the point is: if there’s no way for people differentiate you from mentally ill, how can you possibly expect to be treated any differently? If it walks and quacks like a duck, it may not actually _be_ a duck, but it probably makes sense to treat it as one - or rather - _what possible reason would anyone have for treating it otherwise?_ If your predicament was one of mental illness (and I’m not going to assert that it is), how would it ever be demonstrated to you? You summarily dismiss everything that challenges your worldview - it’s impossible for you to be demonstrated to be wrong, even if you really are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/314 "2009-02-22T02:34:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > They don’t (rarely) use the board itself, but the person is using the board as a focusing device, the demon is communicating with the person. I believe them because I use to be involved with contact with spirit guides, aka demons. OK, I’ll rephrase the question: How did you become convinced people communicate with demons through Ouija boards? You say you believe them because you used to be involved yourself, but you don’t mention if you used Ouija. How did you contact demons? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/315 "2009-02-22T02:54:43Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > That answer, surprisingly, is a good one with just a few tweaks. Elementals are spiritual, meaning you can’t see them. They are not entities, more like fragments of entities. They do love to play and fool anyone that will listen. This is ridiculous. Preposterous. An elemental is a quasi-trans-temporal energy phenomenon. It is as impossible to speak of an elemental force “loving to play and fool anyone” as it is to describe a melody from a symphony by Strauss as sounding like “a Waldorf salad”. They are simply an energy which exists in time as light exists in space. As such it’s in some ways unknowable. Nevertheless, we know certain things about the empirical nature of time which preclude the possibility of the conceivable proposition. Duration is an attribute of consciousness and not of the plenum. It has no Ding an Sich. Thus we derive the necessity that an elemental is a poltergeist-like force that reacts to the people in it’s vicinity, through trans-quantum space. When we consider the four bodily humours, we see that the nature of these humours corresponds to the four classic elements (water, Earth, Wind and Fire). All ‘N’ All, your emotions are a beacon…a Shining Star to these forces–and they manifest themselves accordingly-fire for Choleric, for example. More interestingly, as quasi-trans-temporal forces, these elementals often manifest themselves based on how you are or will feel in the past or future. But these manifestations are reflexive mirroring you and don’t imply any will or temperament to the elementals. To say that they’re “playful” is inaccurate and this is a website devoted to eradicating ignorance. I await your retraction. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/316 "2009-02-22T03:08:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Innocent till proven guilty. Can you imagine how damaging and frustrating and what mental torment you would be in if you could see things that others could not? The damage you could do to a person telling them what is really happening is not real, the mental torment you would put this person in, you would be the one causing the damage. > > IMHO very sadly many people have seen the spiritual, have totally normal functioning minds but were made mentally ill by people trying to convince that they are mentally ill. So how DO you help those who are truly, seriously, mentally ill? You can’t try therapy-you’ll harm them spiritually. But if you don’t treat their illness, you’re only going to make it worse-trust me, I’ve been there (not delusional, but I’ve suffered from depression and anxiety). So you’re basically screwed either way. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/317 "2009-02-22T04:16:06Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > To say that they’re “playful” is inaccurate and this is a website devoted to eradicating ignorance. Maybe he called elementals “playful” because they correspond to humor(s). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bites_when_provoked/32/18073_2.png) [@Bites\_When\_Provoked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bites_When_Provoked)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/318 "2009-02-22T08:21:54Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Maybe he called elementals “playful” because they correspond to humor(s). 😃 Best post in this thread! 😃 (And it’s a pretty darned entertaining thread.) ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/319 "2009-02-22T11:33:09Z")
I note that the only posts the OP has made to SDMB are the three in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/320 "2009-02-22T11:50:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So how DO you help those who are truly, seriously, mentally ill? You can’t try therapy-you’ll harm them spiritually. But if you don’t treat their illness, you’re only going to make it worse-trust me, I’ve been there (not delusional, but I’ve suffered from depression and anxiety). So you’re basically screwed either way. The scriptures speak of a characteristic that people are given called authority, it is the ability to influence others, how believable a person seems, or how much you will ‘naturally’ accept them as a authority on what they speak of without question. Some people have a great deal of authority, seem like natural leaders - have you ever knew a person that just commanded respect, they have been given authority. Then you have others in the middle, of varying degrees. At the low end you have people with no or such low authority, these people usually end up as mentally ill, in jail or homeless. There is nothing wrong with them, just they are treated so inhumanly, and people just can’t recognize them as fully human. I have worked with some of these people, the greatest damage these people get is from people who seemingly try to help them. Some people like Silvia Brown has a great deal of authority, she sees spirits, and she makes a very good living at it, when she talks about her experiences people listen. Someone without authority sees these things and everyone jumps on them, tries to convince them that what exists doesn’t exist, messes with their mind, even giving mind altering medications. From my own experience working with people with very low authority, what I have found they need is Love, non-sexual human contact (holding their hands), to be there for them, to listen to them. Many have had no childhood to speak of, and in many ways that has to be rebuild, and that seems to increase their authority. The worst cases IMHO are children that were unwanted in the womb. Just to add, modern day therapy is the exact opposite of what they need, as they are not suppose to get emotionally attached, but that is exactly what they need, someone who truly Loves them. Therapy just beats them into submission, forcing them to act normal enough, but bearing and hiding the pain in themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528.md?page=17)