# Ouija Boards - I used to think it was bull until...... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528 "2009-02-19T09:46:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/401 "2009-02-24T06:40:33Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Cecil didn’t write it, however, nor did he edit it. […]edited by Ed Zotti 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/402 "2009-02-24T12:24:05Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > So are we humans not accountable for our own sins, since demons are constantly manipulating us? It really IS society’s fault! God held Adam and Eve accountable for their sin, and you can’t blame that one on society. If a demon comes to you in the womb and makes a deal with you, can that be blamed on society?, perhaps since there are sins of the father which would effect you. The way it may happen is exactly how it happened w/ Adam and Eve, we are tempted before we know society, we are offered something that sounds appealing to us, and we all fall for it. The demons then have the right to cause those things to happen to us, and they will cause them their way, hate, anger, lust and as much of a lack of Love as they can manage. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that whole chapter is a testimonial to God’s all-encompassing knowledge of the narrator. The narrator believes God has predestined his own existence, not that the narrator existed before he was born. Even so, how would demons share of God’s knowledge? Does God tell them? Are they as powerful as God? Demons can see into the future, up to divine intervention, as there is no time in the spiritual as we know it, our whole life is visible to them, they know exactly where we will go, and where they must push us and how hard to accomplish what they want (like pushing a long clay string). Once God step into one’s live and changes it, it throws the demons off, if someone accepts Jesus, those demons no longer have a right to manipulate this person’s life (since Jesus has ransomed this person back) and they must depart, and God gets to mold our lives. As for the places underground, my take on it, related to other scriptures is it may be Sheol - the abode of the dead, which is not Hell btw. I believe we are created complete underground and have full consciousness and a body is being made for us in the womb. We slowly integrate in our body, but are still very much in the spiritual existence, at which time certain deals are made with demons. This is a common mysticism belief where one chooses what type of life they want to lead, uncommon in main stream Christianity however. When we are born and our sense come on line and the spirit (breath) enters us we lose much of the ability to sense the spiritual world and become grounded in the physical, which we have to learn to use that body. For dust you are and dust you will return, we will lose that physical body and fall back to underground. This place (Sheol) seems to be IMHO where Jonah spent 3 days, inside the body (of a fish in this case, not a womb) = decent underground “to the roots of the mountains I sunk down, the earth beneath barred me in forever”, which would relate to the hidden places underground in the psalm. > [@](#): > > So say if someone manages to stick to a certain diet, demons can destroy that person by having another person who overeats tie their souls together? Why not just exploit a weakness the dieter does have and eliminate the middleman? I would say that the soul tie could be used to tempt that person to eat, what types of food to eat, influence that person to go to places where they have tempting foods, etc. More importantly some people use food to relieve spiritual pain (modern term comfort food), by creating a soul tie with such a person you will feel some of their pain and use their method of relief - eating. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/403 "2009-02-24T12:29:28Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Just to shake the thread up a little, I’ve had spiritual “experiences” too. LSD, not NDE. And I saw the demons. Taking such drugs IMHO (I never did drugs), let us tune out the physical, block out out physical minds, so we fall back to the spiritual, were demons are. If they appear as monsters, humans, or angels of light depend on what type of deal you have made with them (again IMHO). I am sure there is a meaning and you were meant to see it and them just as you did. What I got for it is that you are with demons, will accept Jesus, be crucified with him then all truths will be known to you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/404 "2009-02-24T12:34:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God held Adam and Eve accountable for their sin, and you can’t blame that one on society. If a demon comes to you in the womb and makes a deal with you, can that be blamed on society?, perhaps since there are sins of the father which would effect you. > > The way it may happen is exactly how it happened w/ Adam and Eve, we are tempted before we know society, we are offered something that sounds appealing to us, and we all fall for it. The demons then have the right to cause those things to happen to us, and they will cause them their way, hate, anger, lust and as much of a lack of Love as they can manage. > > Demons can see into the future, up to divine intervention, as there is no time in the spiritual as we know it, our whole life is visible to them, they know exactly where we will go, and where they must push us and how hard to accomplish what they want (like pushing a long clay string). Once God step into one’s live and changes it, it throws the demons off, if someone accepts Jesus, those demons no longer have a right to manipulate this person’s life (since Jesus has ransomed this person back) and they must depart, and God gets to mold our lives. > > As for the places underground, my take on it, related to other scriptures is it may be Sheol - the abode of the dead, which is not Hell btw. I believe we are created complete underground and have full consciousness and a body is being made for us in the womb. We slowly integrate in our body, but are still very much in the spiritual existence, at which time certain deals are made with demons. This is a common mysticism belief where one chooses what type of life they want to lead, uncommon in main stream Christianity however. > > When we are born and our sense come on line and the spirit (breath) enters us we lose much of the ability to sense the spiritual world and become grounded in the physical, which we have to learn to use that body. For dust you are and dust you will return, we will lose that physical body and fall back to underground. This place (Sheol) seems to be IMHO where Jonah spent 3 days, inside the body (of a fish in this case, not a womb) = decent underground “to the roots of the mountains I sunk down, the earth beneath barred me in forever”, which would relate to the hidden places underground in the psalm. > > I would say that the soul tie could be used to tempt that person to eat, what types of food to eat, influence that person to go to places where they have tempting foods, etc. More importantly some people use food to relieve spiritual pain (modern term comfort food), by creating a soul tie with such a person you will feel some of their pain and use their method of relief - eating. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/405 "2009-02-24T12:35:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Taking such drugs IMHO (I never did drugs), let us tune out the physical, block out out physical minds, so we fall back to the spiritual, were demons are. So drug-induced hallucinations are actually contact with the spirit world, and represent reality? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/406 "2009-02-24T12:39:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So drug-induced hallucinations are actually contact with the spirit world, and represent reality? I believe some are. Also just to throw another monkey wench into the press, I believe autistic children are ones that haven’t fully integrated into their physical bodies. They are intelligent, and ‘somewhere’ but not in our physical world. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/407 "2009-02-24T12:49:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe some are. Is there any way to distinguish between hallucinations that are real (contact with demons), and those that are not (generated by the drugs interacting with the brain)? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/408 "2009-02-24T12:52:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Also just to throw another monkey wench into the press, I believe autistic children are ones that haven’t fully integrated into their physical bodies. They are intelligent, and ‘somewhere’ but not in our physical world. What possible evidence could you have for this belief? ---
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/409 "2009-02-24T13:24:00Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > What possible evidence could you have for this belief? Well, this is pretty off-topic, but **kanicbird** ’s belief has reminded me that Australian researchers have wondered aloud whether [changelings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling), often found in the folklore of northern Europe, were in fact autistic children whose odd behaviors were (obviously wrongly) attributed to supernatural influence. > [@](#): > > Leask, Leask, and Silove. Evidence for autism in folklore? _Archives of Disease in Childhood_ 90: 271, 2005. > > In the wake of the now settled MMR controversy and attempts to link the vaccine with autism, there has been widening interest in whether autism has increased in incidence over the past two decades.[refs] While this question is yet to be fully resolved, folkloric heritage suggests the existence of autism long before its formal recognition in 1943.[ref.] > > Fairytales from the British Isles, Germany, and Scandinavia include stories about changelings. They describe a child who exhibits remarkable and sudden changes in behaviour and/or appearance, explaining that supernatural folk steal normal children and replace them with one of their own, or some other substitute. The new child—the changeling—is characterised by unresponsiveness, resistance to physical affection, obstreperousness, inability to express emotion, and unexplained crying and physical changes such as rigidity and deformity. > > […] > > [http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/90/3/271](http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/90/3/271) (this should be a free-access link) – Tammi Terrell ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/410 "2009-02-24T14:05:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is there any way to distinguish between hallucinations that are real (contact with demons), and those that are not (generated by the drugs interacting with the brain)? I don’t know, they would have to be taken on a case by case basis. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/411 "2009-02-24T14:14:28Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > What possible evidence could you have for this belief? This is fairly recent and I’m still seeing how it will work out. Talking to 2 people who work with autistic children, relating their experiences to me, what the children are able to tell them. It appears very much like these children are somewhere, fully intelligent and conscience and interacting with something, just not in our world, not fully in their bodies. I believe some of the deals that are made can cut a child off of the Love that comes from the mother in the womb, it is the Love that draws the child into the body IMHO. The suggestions I felt lead to share was to get emotionally attached, Love that child, physically touch/hug that child. It’s too early to see if there are results. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/412 "2009-02-24T14:28:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is fairly recent and I’m still seeing how it will work out. Talking to 2 people who work with autistic children, relating their experiences to me, what the children are able to tell them. It appears very much like these children are somewhere, fully intelligent and conscience and interacting with something, just not in our world, not fully in their bodies. > > I believe some of the deals that are made can cut a child off of the Love that comes from the mother in the womb, it is the Love that draws the child into the body IMHO. > > The suggestions I felt lead to share was to get emotionally attached, Love that child, physically touch/hug that child. It’s too early to see if there are results. Would you like us to supply you with the definition of the word “evidence”, **kanicbird**? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/413 "2009-02-24T15:13:12Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So drug-induced hallucinations are actually contact with the spirit world, and represent reality? An awful lot of people believe that, from various Native American cultures to Timothy Leary. Myself, I had no idea what to expect until I stumbled upon it. They’re called [entheogens.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen) And no, the demons weren’t real. Jesus affirmed to me that they were just refelctions of the evil side of my own soul. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/414 "2009-02-24T15:18:41Z")
kanicbird, you’re not seriously suggesting that autism is caused by a lack of maternal affection and deals she made with the devil while pregnant, are you? Did you fall out of a time warp? ---
**Author:** ![katannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@katannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katannah)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/415 "2009-02-24T15:20:56Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > kanicbird, you’re not seriously suggesting that autism is caused by a lack of maternal affection and deals she made with the devil while pregnant, are you? Did you fall out of a time warp? No, the assumption is that the CHILD made the deal prior to being born. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/416 "2009-02-24T15:27:48Z")
Oh, well, that’s better, then. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/417 "2009-02-24T16:36:49Z")
I appreciate all the folks here keeping our resident anti-science posters occupied in this thread and therefore minimally impacting other ones. When this thread peters out, let’s talk about ghosts again. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/418 "2009-02-24T16:42:30Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I appreciate all the folks here keeping our resident anti-science posters occupied in this thread and therefore minimally impacting other ones. > > When this thread peters out, let’s talk about ghosts again. It’s the flypaper, fight-them-over-there strategy put positively into action. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/419 "2009-02-24T16:47:31Z")
“monkey wench” is the funniest typo I’ve seen for a while. Just saying, like. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528/420 "2009-02-24T16:52:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t know, they would have to be taken on a case by case basis. Even so, you have to have some kind of standard of judgement. Or is it all just a feeling, or a hunch, that forms your conclusion about the reality of each situation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ouija-boards-i-used-to-think-it-was-bull-until/486528.md?page=22)