# "our criminal justice system is largely fair and just" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577 "2014-11-25T07:57:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/41 "2014-11-26T20:14:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The system may be fair and just, on paper, but no system can be better than the people operating it. Agree 100% ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/42 "2014-11-26T21:26:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As much as I agree that police officers are shooting people way too much, this is just an absurd position, if you actually think it through. You cannot automatically put someone on trial irrespective of the evidence. > > For one thing, you can’t treat someone differently with respect to going to trial based on their profession. So in effect to do this you’d have to put EVERYONE on trial who ever shot someone, which would lead to absolutely preposterous situations. Think, for a moment, about the consequences of this idea. In general, everyone _does_ go to trial who shoots someone. Everyone except cops. [Between 300-500 police shootings each year](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3180/what-s-the-racial-breakdown-of-people-killed-by-cops), I think we have the resources to take every one of them to trial. It’s a drop in the bucket compared to the number of trials each year. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/43 "2014-11-26T21:36:36Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > In general, everyone _does_ go to trial who shoots someone. Everyone except cops. > **[Dover cops: 2nd fatal shooting was self-defense](https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2014/08/26/fatal-shooting-self-defense-police-say/14632543/)** > > Charges dropped in second Sunday homicide in Dover [http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/murder-charge-dropped-police-say-shooting-was-self/nYYfd/](http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/murder-charge-dropped-police-say-shooting-was-self/nYYfd/) [http://www.kten.com/story/27382400/murder-charge-dropped-after-prosecutors-rule-pottsboro-shooting-as-self-defense](http://www.kten.com/story/27382400/murder-charge-dropped-after-prosecutors-rule-pottsboro-shooting-as-self-defense) > **[Murder charges dropped](https://www.wistv.com/story/4094666/murder-charges-dropped/)** > > York County prosecutors have dropped charges against a 51-year-old woman accused of shooting a man she said attacked her. > **[Capital murder charge against Birmingham man dropped; fatal shooting deemed...](https://www.al.com/spotnews/2011/07/capital_murder_charge_dropped.html)** > > Brandon Edwards' lawyer said evidence backed the self-defense claim in the shooting of Patrick Dewayne Peoples on June 24. [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/2/police-release-suspect-northeast-dc-homicide-say-k/](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/2/police-release-suspect-northeast-dc-homicide-say-k/) etc. etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/44 "2014-11-26T22:05:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Dover cops: 2nd fatal shooting was self-defense](http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2014/08/26/fatal-shooting-self-defense-police-say/14632543/) > > [http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/murder-charge-dropped-police-say-shooting-was-self/nYYfd/](http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/murder-charge-dropped-police-say-shooting-was-self/nYYfd/) > > [http://www.kten.com/story/27382400/murder-charge-dropped-after-prosecutors-rule-pottsboro-shooting-as-self-defense](http://www.kten.com/story/27382400/murder-charge-dropped-after-prosecutors-rule-pottsboro-shooting-as-self-defense) > > [Murder charges dropped](http://www.wistv.com/story/4094666/murder-charges-dropped) > > [Capital murder charge against Birmingham man dropped; fatal shooting deemed self defense - al.com](http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/07/capital_murder_charge_dropped.html) > > [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/2/police-release-suspect-northeast-dc-homicide-say-k/](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/2/police-release-suspect-northeast-dc-homicide-say-k/) > > etc. etc. etc. …Out of how many shootings over that same timespan? Now show me the ratio of police shootings to police trials. Percentage-wise, you prove my point. “In general, everyone does go to trial who shoots someone. Everyone except cops.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/45 "2014-11-26T22:43:05Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > …Out of how many shootings over that same timespan? Now show me the ratio of police shootings to police trials. Percentage-wise, you prove my point. “In general, everyone does go to trial who shoots someone. Everyone except cops.” Show me a cite then. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/46 "2014-11-27T00:15:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think lots of people have this expectation. I think every single one of those people is white. And male. Probably has money too. ---
**Author:** ![InfiniteJest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@InfiniteJest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfiniteJest)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/47 "2014-11-27T00:45:55Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > In general, everyone _does_ go to trial who shoots someone. Everyone except cops. > > [Between 300-500 police shootings each year](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3180/what-s-the-racial-breakdown-of-people-killed-by-cops), I think we have the resources to take every one of them to trial. It’s a drop in the bucket compared to the number of trials each year. Try them for what? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/48 "2014-11-28T19:09:34Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > In general, everyone _does_ go to trial who shoots someone. Everyone except cops. As has been shown, this simply isn’t true, unless you have evidence it’s not. Secondly, we would EXPECT there to be a difference between the prosecution rates of police officers who shoot people and non-police-officers who shoot people. Police officers are the one group of people in civilian life who are specifically employed to engage in situations where shooting people may become necessary. Finally, though maybe it’s point 2A, “automatically go to trial” is a stupid idea; again, I would ask you to think through the implications of what you’re suggesting. Actually, let me create a scenario for you. Tim, who happens to be black, just 'cause I felt like it, is a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen who resides in San Antonio. He has no record and is as nice a guy as you could hope to meet. One Monday evening Tim is up watching Monday Night Football (he’s Texan, so of course he is) and his wife and daughter are sleeping upstairs. It’s the fourth quarter and Tony Romo just threw another goddamn pick (he’s Tony Romo, so of course he did) but just before he has a chance to say something about Mr. Romo’s football skills and simian ancestry, Tim hears something from the kitchen. Entering the kitchen, Tim is amazed to discover a man breaking in to his house. The man - a wild-eyed, dishevelled white man - has broken the glass pane on the kitchen door and is reaching inside and fumbling around for the lock. As Tim watches, frozen is astonishment, the man unlocks the door and begins to enter. “Get out of my house!” yells Tim. The man ignores him, looking around, and begins to open drawers. Tim again tells him to get out. The man turns on him and says “Where’s the money? Jewelry? Give me everything you have or I’ll fucking kill you.” Tim reaches atop the pantry next to him and grabs his legally owned handgun. “Get out, or I’ll shoot you,” he says. The man advances on Tim and repeats his demand Tim hand over money or else “I’ll kill you, you fucking nigger.” Tim, though he legally has no obligation to, retreats. His only concern is the safety of his wife and daughter, so he’s looking to block the stairway. The intruder advances on him, out of the kitchen, and then reaches into his waistband and draws a gun. Tim shouts “Stop! Get out of I’ll shoot!” and the intruder fires. Thankfully, he misses. Tim fires back, once, striking the intruder in the chest. The intruder falls to the ground. Tim’s wife, who has come downstairs, immediately calls 911. Tim goes to administer first aid but the man is dead. Now the police come. Absolutely every indication is that the killing was justifiable self defense. There is a carload of evidence to that effect. Indeed, it is virtually impossible for a reasonable person to construct a scenario, based on the available evidence, that the shooting was a murder. Are you seriously saying this has to go to trial? That Tim has to be attacked by the State of Texas, and all its legal might against whatever attorney he can afford, with the threat of imprisonment? You believe he should be arrested, jailed for at least a day or so, and then placed into a situation where a representative of the state is going to try - HAS to try - his level best to put Tim in prison? That’s how things should work, really? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/49 "2014-11-28T19:50:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As has been shown, this simply isn’t true, unless you have evidence it’s not. > > Secondly, we would EXPECT there to be a difference between the prosecution rates of police officers who shoot people and non-police-officers who shoot people. Police officers are the one group of people in civilian life who are specifically employed to engage in situations where shooting people may become necessary. > > Finally, though maybe it’s point 2A, “automatically go to trial” is a stupid idea; again, I would ask you to think through the implications of what you’re suggesting. Actually, let me create a scenario for you. > > Tim, who happens to be black, just 'cause I felt like it, is a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen who resides in San Antonio. He has no record and is as nice a guy as you could hope to meet. One Monday evening Tim is up watching Monday Night Football (he’s Texan, so of course he is) and his wife and daughter are sleeping upstairs. It’s the fourth quarter and Tony Romo just threw another goddamn pick (he’s Tony Romo, so of course he did) but just before he has a chance to say something about Mr. Romo’s football skills and simian ancestry, Tim hears something from the kitchen. > > Entering the kitchen, Tim is amazed to discover a man breaking in to his house. The man - a wild-eyed, dishevelled white man - has broken the glass pane on the kitchen door and is reaching inside and fumbling around for the lock. As Tim watches, frozen is astonishment, the man unlocks the door and begins to enter. > > “Get out of my house!” yells Tim. > > The man ignores him, looking around, and begins to open drawers. Tim again tells him to get out. The man turns on him and says “Where’s the money? Jewelry? Give me everything you have or I’ll fucking kill you.” > > Tim reaches atop the pantry next to him and grabs his legally owned handgun. “Get out, or I’ll shoot you,” he says. > > The man advances on Tim and repeats his demand Tim hand over money or else “I’ll kill you, you fucking nigger.” > > Tim, though he legally has no obligation to, retreats. His only concern is the safety of his wife and daughter, so he’s looking to block the stairway. The intruder advances on him, out of the kitchen, and then reaches into his waistband and draws a gun. Tim shouts “Stop! Get out of I’ll shoot!” and the intruder fires. Thankfully, he misses. > > Tim fires back, once, striking the intruder in the chest. The intruder falls to the ground. Tim’s wife, who has come downstairs, immediately calls 911. Tim goes to administer first aid but the man is dead. > > Now the police come. Absolutely every indication is that the killing was justifiable self defense. There is a carload of evidence to that effect. Indeed, it is virtually impossible for a reasonable person to construct a scenario, based on the available evidence, that the shooting was a murder. > > Are you seriously saying this has to go to trial? That Tim has to be attacked by the State of Texas, and all its legal might against whatever attorney he can afford, with the threat of imprisonment? You believe he should be arrested, jailed for at least a day or so, and then placed into a situation where a representative of the state is going to try - HAS to try - his level best to put Tim in prison? That’s how things should work, really? Well, no, but only because the adversarial system is bullshit, and a lot of the reason our justice system is not largely fair and just. You absolutely need a neutral investigative third party. But we definitely do not want officers of the law deciding whether or not there is enough evidence to convict. Nor prosecutors who will often only continue if they are sure they can convict (because their record is worth more than justice). We have a jury system because we want disinterested parties to make that decision. That’s why the bias in the system lags behind the public with things like racism and such. We have either a single individual or a group of professionals with a similar mindset making these decisions. Despite not liking that the Ferguson grand jury had to consider a self-defense plea without the resources of a full trial, I do at least think it’s good that there was a grand jury of disinterested parties making the decision. It might still be racist, but at least that racism would be spread out and diluted. (I just would have liked to have seen one more minority juror.) Plus, I actually think we need more people who would retreat, having the fear of consequences overriding their other fear and their feeling that they have the right to defend their castle. I think Tim is a rarity in our current system. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/50 "2014-11-28T21:34:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Are you seriously saying this has to go to trial? That Tim has to be attacked by the State of Texas, and all its legal might against whatever attorney he can afford, with the threat of imprisonment? You believe he should be arrested, jailed for at least a day or so, and then placed into a situation where a representative of the state is going to try - HAS to try - his level best to put Tim in prison? That’s how things should work, really? In Texas? Hell, Tim should thank his lucky stars he’s only facing prison, not the needle. I could see the law requiring a trial for every shooting being the plot to a bad episode of Monk, here’s what happened: Tim and the so-called intruder were actually secretly homosexual lovers and the intruder (let’s call him Bob) was threatening to expose his infidelity to his wife unless Tim left her. Moreover, Bob knew about Tim’s secret bank account where he was hiding the money he had been embezzling from his place of work for the past 20 years. Tim was going to have none of it and decided the only way to solve his problems was to kill Bob. Knowing that nobody knew of his and Bob’s relationship, he brazenly decided to invite Bob over under the pretense of wanting to talk things out, maneuvered him to the middle of the living room and shot him in the chest. Tim knew the law would require that he be tried for the shooting, and was even counting on it: he’d face a trial where he’d easily be acquitted on self defense, jeopardy would attach, and he’d have gotten away with murder. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/51 "2014-11-29T23:57:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Now the police come. Absolutely every indication is that the killing was justifiable self defense. There is a carload of evidence to that effect. Indeed, it is virtually impossible for a reasonable person to construct a scenario, based on the available evidence, that the shooting was a murder. > > Are you seriously saying this has to go to trial? That Tim has to be attacked by the State of Texas, and all its legal might against whatever attorney he can afford, with the threat of imprisonment? You believe he should be arrested, jailed for at least a day or so, and then placed into a situation where a representative of the state is going to try - HAS to try - his level best to put Tim in prison? That’s how things should work, really? Who exactly determines what evidence there is, and how exculpatory? If you say, “the police,” remember that police are not commissioned to try cases. If we let police who bury evidence, “to save the taxpayers the cost of a trial,” (as if county prosecutors are going to take a pay cut because they tried fewer cases) we allow corrupt police to cover for their friends, not to mention themselves. If you say, “the prosecutor,” fine. A prosecutor has discretion not to try a case. Where that’s a problem is when there is a conflict of interest. I actually agree with you that Bob McCulloch should not be expected to pursue a court case against Darren Wilson. Because Bob McCulloch is too close to that department. The case should have been handled by someone from outside St. Louis County government from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/52 "2014-12-01T14:03:55Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > A. This is not an isolated incident. B. If the officer was in the right, he’ll have no problem convincing a jury of the fact. > > EVERY TIME a cop shoots somebody, there should be a trial. Period. It should be a matter of public record: his reasoning, his options, the evidence for and against the necessity of firing his weapon. If you mean a criminal trial – do you understand that this runs counter to the various guarantees we find in the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/53 "2014-12-01T18:32:00Z")
[QUOTE=DrCube] If the officer was in the right, he’ll have no problem convincing a jury of the fact. [/QUOTE] Do you believe every innocent person can easily prove his innocence? Or are you recommending that everyone who cannot prove innocence should be convicted? Or just police? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/54 "2014-12-01T19:45:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you believe every innocent person can easily prove his innocence? Or are you recommending that everyone who cannot prove innocence should be convicted? Or just police? > > Regards, > Shodan Just police. Because who determines if a homicide is justified or not, besides a jury? Police (and, what amounts to the same thing, district attorneys) do. We can’t allow the very important determination over whether a homicide is or is not murder to be performed by the same organization committing the homicide. “Don’t worry. We have investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong!” This should not fly in a free country. Do you think we should accept the word of _every_ killer as to why their act of homicide was justified? Or only cops? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/55 "2014-12-01T19:47:53Z")
Then it seems what you really need is an independent state agency tasked with investigating and prosecuting police misconduct - which is something I’ve advocated for years. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/56 "2014-12-01T19:56:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I actually agree with you that Bob McCulloch should not be expected to pursue a court case against Darren Wilson. It is impossible for you to agree with me about something I have not stated an opinion on. ---
**Author:** ![Smitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/57 "2014-12-02T16:54:46Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > In Texas? Hell, Tim should thank his lucky stars he’s only facing prison, not the needle. Bullshit. You clearly don’t know the first thing about Texas. You set foot on someone else’s property in Texas with anything even approaching bad intentions, you can be blown away with no problem. And the person doing the shooting - black, white, or green - will face no repercussions whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/58 "2014-12-02T17:13:25Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > Bullshit. You clearly don’t know the first thing about Texas. You set foot on someone else’s property in Texas with anything even approaching bad intentions, you can be blown away with no problem. And the person doing the shooting - black, white, or green - will face no repercussions whatsoever. This is false and you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/59 "2014-12-02T17:51:46Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Just police. So you believe that police officers should have certain of their Constitutional rights removed? Just the right to the presumption of innocence, or other rights as well? How about the right to an attorney? The right not to testify against themselves? Do they have the right to a trial at all? > [@](#): > > Do you think we should accept the word of _every_ killer as to why their act of homicide was justified? Or only cops? I think that anyone who is accused of murder is entitled to the presumption of innocence at trial, shall have the assistance of counsel in his or her defense, can refuse to answer questions at any time, shall be entitled to cross-examine witnesses against him or her, and so on. You apparently do not. I think that’s unfortunate. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577/60 "2014-12-02T18:09:34Z")
Didn’t say anything of the sort. Trial and examination of evidence is the actual _subject_, your interpretation of denying those procedures is nonsensical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-criminal-justice-system-is-largely-fair-and-just/705577.md?page=4)