# Our Founding Fathers and Christianity. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2019, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745 "2019-12-12T11:54:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/1 "2019-12-12T11:54:43Z")
I am a little confused by some modern Christian’s and their claims our country was founded on Christianity. I think our country was founded on Deism, wasn’t it? Jefferson, Ben Franklin and Washington were all Deists, weren’t they? And Deists aren’t even Christians. Who is right and who is wrong, exactly? Thank you all in advance for your civil debate:). :):):):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/2 "2019-12-12T12:39:28Z")
Those “modern Christians” you refer to are factually incorrect: > **[Treaty of Tripoli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli)** > > The Treaty of Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary) was signed in 1796. It was the first treaty between the United States and Tripoli (now Libya) to secure commercial shipping rights and protect American ships in the Mediterranean Sea from local Barbary pirates. > It was authored by Joel Barlow, an ardent Jeffersonian republican, and signed in Tripoli on November 4, 1796, and at Algiers (for a third-party witnes... “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” This treaty was signed by John Adams. And from Thomas Jefferson: “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.” Also: “Jefferson’s metaphor of a wall of separation has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court. In Reynolds v. United States (1879) the Court wrote that Jefferson’s comments “may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment.” In Everson v. Board of Education (1947), Justice Hugo Black wrote: “In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state.”” > **[Separation of church and state in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States)** > > "Separation of church and state" is a metaphor paraphrased from Thomas Jefferson and used by others in discussions regarding the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." > The principle is paraphrased from Thomas Jefferson's "separation between Church & State." It has been used to express the understandings of ... The recognition of “our Creator” in the Declaration of Independence is not specific to any religion at all, much less Christianity. It should also be noted that the Bill of Rights expressly upholds the right to violate the Ten Commandments and many other Christian laws/rules as a fundamental (and the most important!) right. Only two of the Ten Commandments are backed up by law in the US, and the right to violate many or most of the rest is held as a fundamental right. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/3 "2019-12-12T13:18:58Z")
As I mentioned in the other thread about religious decline, I think it’s helpful to break things down by what areas of religion we are talking about. In terms of metaphysics, the founders were mostly deists. They were scientifically literate. Sure, they weren’t aware of later discoveries and theories like evolution, the Big Bang, and so on, but they probably didn’t believe in a literal seven day creation, the literal resurrection of the dead, and those sorts of things either. On the other hand, their morality did come from a Christian background. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/4 "2019-12-12T13:36:14Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > As I mentioned in the other thread about religious decline, I think it’s helpful to break things down by what areas of religion we are talking about. In terms of metaphysics, the founders were mostly deists. They were scientifically literate. Sure, they weren’t aware of later discoveries and theories like evolution, the Big Bang, and so on, but they probably didn’t believe in a literal seven day creation, the literal resurrection of the dead, and those sorts of things either. On the other hand, their morality did come from a Christian background. ISTM they were \*cultural \*Christians as are the vast majority of Westerners – it’s what most were taught on their parents’ knee, and they were raised to participate in the rites and forms of church life because in their world that’s just what a virtuous respectable person does and it provides community and comfort and a common language with which to refer to the spiritual. For them, having one form or another of “Christian” values pervade society would just be the sociocultural default. But they were not creating a deliberately Christianity-based polity and most definitely not a theologically “Evangelical” Republic. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/5 "2019-12-12T13:59:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those “modern Christians” you refer to are factually incorrect: > > [Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli) > > “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” > > This treaty was signed by John Adams. > > And from Thomas Jefferson: > > “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.” > > Also: > > “Jefferson’s metaphor of a wall of separation has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court. In Reynolds v. United States (1879) the Court wrote that Jefferson’s comments “may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment.” In Everson v. Board of Education (1947), Justice Hugo Black wrote: “In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state.”” > > [Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States) > > The recognition of “our Creator” in the Declaration of Independence is not specific to any religion at all, much less Christianity. > > It should also be noted that the Bill of Rights expressly upholds the right to violate the Ten Commandments and many other Christian laws/rules as a fundamental (and the most important!) right. Only two of the Ten Commandments are backed up by law in the US, and the right to violate many or most of the rest is held as a fundamental right. I think there’s a third enshrined in law: no killing no stealing no bearing false witness (though we’ve added “under oath” to that). i think it’s torturing the English language to say that violating the others are fundamental rights. Saying that has no more meaning than stating I have the “fundamental” right to eat ice cream. Big whoop. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/6 "2019-12-12T14:04:33Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I think there’s a third enshrined in law: > no killing > no stealing > no bearing false witness (though we’ve added “under oath” to that). > > i think it’s torturing the English language to say that violating the others are fundamental rights. Saying that has no more meaning than stating I have the “fundamental” right to eat ice cream. Big whoop. Pretty sure that “false idol” stuff is protected under the 1st amendment, and the sex stuff is covered under various rights to privacy… YMMV if those are considered “fundamental” rights, though IMO the 1st Amendment clearly is. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/7 "2019-12-12T16:07:33Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I am a little confused by some modern Christian’s and their claims our country was founded on Christianity. I think our country was founded on Deism, wasn’t it? {…} AIUI it wasn’t founded _on_ any religion. At best, you can say it was founded _by_ people that had a variety ‘religious’ beliefs. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/8 "2019-12-12T16:30:05Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I am a little confused by some modern Christian’s and their claims our country was founded on Christianity. I think our country was founded on Deism, wasn’t it? Jefferson, Ben Franklin and Washington were all Deists, weren’t they? And Deists aren’t even Christians. [George Washington was an Anglican](https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/religion/8-facts-about-george-washington-and-religion/). Jefferson and Franklin were deists as was the pamphleteer Thomas Paine, but if I recall correctly, all three said that Jesus Christ was the greatest and wisest person ever, or something along those lines. They only denied the divinity of Christ, so the question of whether they were Christians would depend on who’s drawing the line. Among signers of the Declaration of Independence, most were members of Christian denominations. For some their religion was unknown. Only a handle were known to be deists. [Full list here](https://www.usconstitution.net/declarsigndata.html). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/9 "2019-12-12T17:01:05Z")
People say the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation because the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation. But that’s actually a complicated sentence that takes a book to fully unroll. And many books have tried to do so. The shortest possible answer I can give is that many of the colonies were founded as religious havens, places where a sect could freely practice their religion - while treating all other religions badly. Ministers were both cultural and political leaders. They made the laws and the laws enshrined their religious practices, many of which last to this day. After 150 years of this, the colonial laws got transformed into state laws, usually with few changes. It took some states decades to eliminate their state religions. Connecticut didn’t do so until 1818, Massachusetts until 1833, and New Hampshire until 1877. For much of this time non-Protestants were barred from holding office. Remember, the Bill of Rights was not seen as applying to state laws until the 14th Amendment. What’s the other side to this? That horrible “D” word: Diversity. It was one thing to impose total control on a small, homogeneous colony, another on ever-growing cities with five-figure populations. And yet another level up to try to enmesh the often antithetical cultures of 13 disputatious colonies. Creating a country with one overriding set of federal laws meant that much of the individuality had to go. The differences between Quaker Pennsylvania and Catholic Maryland and Episcopalian Virginia were profound, and none of these wanted to be governed by the purported Christians in the others. The no establishment of religion clause added to the First Amendment applied to other states as much as it was a reference to the Church of England. It wasn’t so much the religious beliefs of the Founders that set the tone for the country as their political pragmatism (and tacit hatred of others). None of them doubted that this was a Christian nation, if Catholics were counted as Christian, a matter that Protestants often disputed. They lived in a sea of Christians; only a handful, most of them in heathen New York, weren’t. But they didn’t want any particular sect to rule the others, a remarkably progressive stance for the day. So. America was founded as a secular nation by a band of fractious Christians. That’s ironic. And it sure didn’t help non-Christians much for most of the country’s history. But the difference between “not much” and “not at all” turned out to be huge, much to the Christians’ chagrin, and it gets huger every year. Diversity, again, triumphs. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/10 "2019-12-12T17:18:17Z")
IMHO it’s a bit like saying the US was or was not founded as an English speaking nation. It’s not codified in federal law, but English is certainly the default language. I don’t think any federal laws were officially written in any other language. They’ve been translated certainly, but if there was any dispute the English version would be official. (This might not apply to treaties.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/11 "2019-12-12T18:12:10Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [George Washington was an Anglican](https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/religion/8-facts-about-george-washington-and-religion/). Jefferson and Franklin were deists as was the pamphleteer Thomas Paine, but if I recall correctly, all three said that Jesus Christ was the greatest and wisest person ever, or something along those lines. They only denied the divinity of Christ, so the question of whether they were Christians would depend on who’s drawing the line. > > Among signers of the Declaration of Independence, most were members of Christian denominations. For some their religion was unknown. Only a handle were known to be deists. [Full list here](https://www.usconstitution.net/declarsigndata.html). Washington was an Anglican, and did go to services, but seldom took communion. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_George_Washington#Attendance_at_religious_services) I wouldn’t be surprised if Paine said nice things about Jesus (Lenny Bruce did also) but if you read The Age of Reason you can quickly see that he was not a Christian in any way. The book is devoted to the absurdity of the Bible. Paine was not an atheist since he saw no way for the solar system to form without some kind of divine guidance. I suspect he would be an atheist today. Madison, by the way, supported Paine when he came back from France, so I think he was a deist also. Supporting Paine at that time was not a popular thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/12 "2019-12-12T18:19:40Z")
Though as the link also states, it was not uncommon to pass on participating in communion in the late 1700s (if you were Protestant). So that doesn’t particularly show anything regarding Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/13 "2019-12-12T19:54:43Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > IMHO it’s a bit like saying the US was or was not founded as an English speaking nation. I agree. The United States has always been a nation in which the citizenry is predominantly Christian. But it was founded on the clearly stated basis that no religion, including Christianity, had any official status or authority. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/14 "2019-12-12T20:15:22Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Though as the link also states, it was not uncommon to pass on participating in communion in the late 1700s (if you were Protestant). So that doesn’t particularly show anything regarding Washington. Or a Catholic who hadn’t been able to fast. The first Mass used to be super-early to allow people to have a bearable fast; nowadays it’s rare to see one before 8am on weekdays or 10am on Sundays and high Holydays. My current parish has them at 9:30am every day. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/15 "2019-12-17T01:51:20Z")
Founders had 3 chances to establish a Christian nation - Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution. Didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/16 "2019-12-17T02:51:04Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > They only denied the divinity of Christ, so the question of whether they were Christians would depend on who’s drawing the line. :dubious: Just how many people’s “line” characterizes denying the divinity of Christ to be the position of a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/17 "2019-12-17T04:19:55Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > :dubious: Just how many people’s “line” characterizes denying the divinity of Christ to be the position of a Christian? Haven’t you noticed that there are 167,000,000 Christians in America and 168,000,000 denominations? ---
**Author:** ![atimnie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atimnie/32/11_2.png) [@atimnie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atimnie)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/18 "2019-12-17T12:33:03Z")
It does no good to exaggerate the numbers. It’s hard to tell exactly how many denominations there are, but it numbers in the thousands, not the millions. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/19 "2019-12-17T12:42:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Pretty sure that “false idol” stuff is protected under the 1st amendment, and the sex stuff is covered under various rights to privacy… YMMV if those are considered “fundamental” rights, though IMO the 1st Amendment clearly is. Sex crimes have been and remain a thing in America. There is no right to privacy. The Georgia Supreme Court overturned their law against fornication (sex by non-married people) the same year the US Supreme Court overturned sodomy laws (Lawrence v Texas 2003). Some Virginia legislators are trying to more narrowly define sodomy so they can bring back sodomy laws. Depending on jurisdiction, sodomy was defined either by case law or by legislative decree as anal, oral, and anywhere else a couple could think to put a penis. Cunnilingus was usually overlooked. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745/20 "2019-12-19T18:03:47Z")
Have little time to participate in this thread, wish I could, but still would like to recommend an excellent book entitled _The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents from Washington to F.D.R._ by Franklin Steiner. None of this Christian revisionist funny business going on. If my time frees up next week, and this thread is still going on, will try to make it here. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-founding-fathers-and-christianity/844745.md?page=2)