# Our freedom is on it's last legs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856 "2005-11-07T02:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/241 "2005-11-17T03:15:15Z")
We will be back to the silly show right after these messages from your local sponsers. Don’t click that link…ya here! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/242 "2005-11-17T03:30:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …I don’t understand how you can admit they are lies and exagerations and at the same time expect me to take them seriously. Pretty simple, really. If one were to say “Jeffrey Dahmer is a monster who killed and ate thousands of people”… That is a wild exaggeration. He didn’t, at most he did about a dozen or less. But if you are to suggest that because the initial charge is an exaggeration, Mr. Dahmer is an innocent lamb, cruelly victimized and slandered… Then in that instance, as in this, you are full of it. As well, I note that you try to imply that if a cite does offer proof beyond the idea of a shadow of a doubt, that means that the cite does not “support” the charge. That’s not quite true either. Proof is evidence carried to its logical extreme, but evidence still exists even if it does not constitute complete “proof”. Evolution is considered to be truth because the preponderance of evidence weighs in its favor, but by its very nature, it is impossible to prove. As you yourself have conceded, there is quite reliable evidence that some prisoners have been abused by US troops. If no such evidence existed, your assertion that the cite amounts to slander would carry some weight. Unhappily for your argument, it just ain’t so. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/243 "2005-11-17T03:40:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Now you’re really turning me on. Are you sure you’re not a girl? Just couldn’t bring yourself to do it, could you? What kind of red-blooded American backs down in the face of freedom-hating traitors like me? Stand up and denounce the treason in our midst! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/244 "2005-11-17T04:06:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Pretty simple, really. > > If one were to say “Jeffrey Dahmer is a monster who killed and ate thousands of people”… > > That is a wild exaggeration. He didn’t, at most he did about a dozen or less. > > But if you are to suggest that because the initial charge is an exaggeration, Mr. Dahmer is an innocent lamb, cruelly victimized and slandered… > > Then in that instance, as in this, you are full of it. Likening our troops to Jeffrey Dahmer. Nice. > [@](#): > > As well, I note that you try to imply that if a cite does offer proof beyond the idea of a shadow of a doubt, that means that the cite does not “support” the charge. Fine. By all means explain how the charge is supported. > [@](#): > > Proof is evidence carried to its logical extreme, but evidence still exists even if it does not constitute complete “proof”. Evidence of something, yes. Not necessarily the thing you are trying to prove especially if you go **beyond** the logical extreme as has been done here. To start with “21 homicides occured among detainees” and just jump to “Our forces have tortured dozens to death,” is ridiculously beyond that logical extreme. There is simply no reason to assume one from the other and to do so is to commit slander against those you accuse. > [@](#): > > Evolution is considered to be truth because the preponderance of evidence weighs in its favor, but by its very nature, it is impossible to prove. That evolution occurs is a proven fact. Have you ever eaten corn? > [@](#): > > As you yourself have conceded, there is quite reliable evidence that some prisoners have been abused by US troops. If no such evidence existed, your assertion that the cite amounts to slander would carry some weight. Unhappily for your argument, it just ain’t so. “Prisoners have been abused by US troops,” is a factually accurate statement. It is supportable and proven. “Our troops have tortured dozens to death” is a different statement. It does not logically follow from the first statement. The first statement does not prove the second. Pretending it does is a slander. This is simple stuff. The subject is not whether or not abuse has occured. The subject is not whether or not homicides have occured. The subject is whether or not it can be stated as a fact that US forces have tortured dozens to death. To say so when it cannot is slander, and worthy of contempt. Can **you** state it as a fact? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/245 "2005-11-17T04:39:37Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > So, just to be absolutely straight on this, you stand by your characterization of certain posters in this thread as “traitors.” You believe they are guilty of treason, am I correct?Say it in plain English for all the world to see. Call a traitor. Call **elucidator** a traitor. Call **FinnAgain** a traitor. Call **jfranchi** a traitor. Point out all of the traitors on this board. Do it. Put your shamlessness out there for all the world to see. Remove any doubt about your motives and character. Tell us how we don’t love our country. Tell us how we hate America. Call us all traitors. But only do it if you REALLY mean it, not merely to score rhetorical points. I’m calling you out. Do you really believe, in your heart of hearts, that we are traitors because we don’t agree with you and we don’t agree with this war and the way it’s being conducted. If you have other instances of our treason, cite them. Show us the treason, **Scylla**. There was mention of weasels too. What did weasels do to anyone here? Think about the weasels! Which is the worse treason? To holler against percieved wrongs, injustice and deceipt, or to casually accept them? Which does any country more harm in the long run? Apathy and acqiescence are the worst treasons. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/246 "2005-11-17T04:55:04Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You get so riled up, so willing to go on the offensive attacking the left, over a poster who reports ACLU findings, and the atrocities at Abu Ghraib get one throw away sentence. You’ve taken a page from the latest Bush playbook to go on the attack while ignoring the huge problems with this administration. “HEY LOOK.” shouts Scylla, “They’re exaggerrating what happened, those traitorous scumbags!!!” Meanwhile all but ignoring the torture and murder of prisoners and the indefinite detention, without due process of others. I don’t know how many different times or ways to say it, but that is seriously fucked up. It isn’t JUST the ACLU. There are army officers too. Captain Fishback has effectively thrown away his career to report violations, and when investigated, his claims were verified by the records of the army Inspector General office. There have been other agencies involved too. Meanwhile, FindLaw had a very damning piece explaining the interplay between Abu, GITMO, the Supreme Court ruling that refused to give Bush/Cheney a blank check etc. Their take on it was (short version) places like GITMO were deliberately chosen, to cricumvent all law. Being outside the US, it is presented as not being answerable to US law. However it is not treated as part of Cuba (which also has laws) since it is the GITMO, not Cuba (somehow). Anything goes. Same goes for Abu and any secret or more secret places. Being out of country keeps the “U.S. sheriff” away, being US controlled keeps the “local sheriff” there away. No laws, no oversight, no controls. Same with the “disagreement” over prisoner status. If they were criminals, they would have rights. If they were POWs they would have rights. As just “bad people” as Bush calls them, they have no rights (non-entities?). No laws, no oversight, no controls. Finally, there have been reports from various agencies and news for months or more. There have been photos. Just do google searches for Abu and torture, or GITMO and torture. There have already been lots of threads here in the past year, full of linky goodness too. We (the U.S.) even bit the holy shit out of one of our own soldiers and fucked him up permanently, as a “training exercise”. There was a thread about that too. Anyone who claims to not be aware must have been living on a deserted island. Either that, or a liar. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/247 "2005-11-17T05:08:30Z")
Don’t confuse silly with facts. Nothing good can come of it. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/248 "2005-11-17T05:52:11Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Which is the worse treason? To holler against percieved wrongs, injustice and deceipt, or to casually accept them? Which does any country more harm in the long run? Apathy and acqiescence are the worst treasons. This is a false argument. Hollering against perceived “wrongs”, in this case, “US troops torturing dozens of people to death”, is slanderous and malicious. On the other side of your argument, why should anyone accept, casually or otherwise, things that have not been proven to be true? Which does our country more harm in the long run? Slanderous, malicious, lies against our troops, or not accepting the perceived wrongs without proof? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/249 "2005-11-17T06:09:03Z")
I’ve calmed down a bit, but not enough that I trust myself in this thread. So, I’m going to make this rather brief. One of the things being debated is whether or not one specific detainee really died from being smothered. However, I see little reason to question this as the military has already admitted it. [ > [@](#): > > Army officials noted that the service had prosecuted several soldiers on charges of detainee abuse. The case of former Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Mowhoush, whose death on Nov. 26, 2003, was caused by what the Army described as “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression” — allegedly when he was forced into a sleeping bag — has resulted in three prosecutions, said Maj. Wayne Marotto, an Army spokesman. ]([http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-abuse25oct25,1,7465698.story?coll=la-headlines-world](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-abuse25oct25,1,7465698.story?coll=la-headlines-world)) Why does the Army hate America and the Army? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/250 "2005-11-17T06:38:43Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > slanderous and malicious. Your presence is requested, yet again, [at your party.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6805739#post6805739) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/251 "2005-11-17T15:33:15Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > It’s not particularly a surprise at this stage that you’re not interested in things like proof. What I’m not interested in is your continued dismissal of the reports of others. I’m not going to go through 10,000 pages of documents in order to disprove your allegations of the left being traitors and slanderers for reporting what is in the news. Feel free, though, to add the New York Times and AP to Scylla’s list of evildoers. For those people who are interested AND have some semblance of rationality though, [here](http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9908) are a couple news articles about the things Finn posted about. > [@Scylla](#): > > That’s not a fact. They were characterized as homicides in the autopsy reports by the army, not by the ACLU. How you get from the documented fact that a homicide occured to “These people died as a result of torture by US Forces” is an explanatory gap. Over 100 people have died while in custody of the government. Of those, an estimated 21-31 were homicides. > [@Scylla](#): > > We looked at those reports, you and I. Unlike you, I actually tried to find the parts where it says that in the reports. I could not. Oddly, **those** reports don’t seem to be available. > > Like I said before, please look. Find the part where it says "at least eight resulted from abusive techniques by military or intelligence officers, such as strangulation or “blunt force injuries.” That’s what the ACLU said. I, unlike the ACLU, do not have the time, inclination, nor commitment to sue for the release of all the documentation or to review all of the documents released. > [@Scylla](#): > > Absolutely. Good for you. Can I now assume all Republicans are as big of rabid, idiotic assholes with reading problems like you? > [@Scylla](#): > > That’s not true. It’s simply not the subject were debating. What we’re debating is whether the statement that our forces have tortured dozens to death can be factually supported and reasonably made. No, were not debating that. Finn and others have provided citations supporting that proposition. Citations from people who have had the chance to investigate the issues far beyond the abilities of you or I. You’ve made it perfectly clear that you won’t accept that as proof, yet you seem more than willing to do the exact same thing you accuse others of doing: making accusations without evidence. > [@Scylla](#): > > It appears that it can’t. You seem to be trying to change the subject to something else. The majority of my time, clearly wasted with you, has been to point out that you’re full of shit when you say this evidence is a complete fabrication, that the left are traitors and slanderers. Luckily for your massive ego, my posts have been about YOU, as a poster, being a complete and utter asshole. One who gets his panties in a twist over a poster citing to an ACLU report, yet who remains completely blase about the torture and possible murder of prisoners. > [@Scylla](#): > > That’s not supporting evidence for torturing dozens to death. It’s evidence of other things. Other things that apparently don’t matter to you as much as a post on a fucking message board. If you held this administration to 1/10th of the standard you hold the ACLU, I’d expect you to be marching on Washington. > [@Scylla](#): > > I don’t understand how you can admit they are lies and exagerations and at the same time expect me to take them seriously. I don’t give a flying fuck about you or whether you take allegations seriously. What I do care about is your willingness to attack posters and to paint the left with a broad brush. And, actually, I don’t much care about that anymore. I’ve lost the minutiae of respect I had for you, and now I feel quite comfortable lumping you in with **Scott Plaid** , **ElvisL1ves** , and **Shodan** as posters who are not worthy of my attention. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/252 "2005-11-17T17:09:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Likening our troops to Jeffrey Dahmer. Nice… I have to pause for a note of appreciation. This is classic **Scylla**. As the _Ode to Joy_ is nearly perfect Beethoven, like the “Soup Can” captures the transcendent banality of Warhol…this is weapons-grade **Scylla** , it demonstrates to near perfection why you cannot spell “analogy” without “a-n-a-l”. And so concise! Almost _zen_ like, a _haiku_ of horseshit from the Basho of buttwhistle. A lesser craftsman might have shrieked “AHA! Behold! The Arch-traitor **'luc** says our troops are flesh-eating zombies!” But no. Discipline and restraint, a mountain of pure crap stuffed into a mere seven words. It is a wonder that a mind so clotted with venom can function at all, much less so crisply concise, its like watching Steven Hawkings dance the Funky Chicken! _Mirabile dickhead_! (Interested readers may wish to be advised of the forthcoming _ **Scylla’s** Greatest Hits: I’m Right and Everybody Else Is Full of Shit But Especially You!_, due out soon from Remainder House…) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/253 "2005-11-17T17:25:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > (Interested readers may wish to be advised of the forthcoming _ **Scylla’s** Greatest Hits: I’m Right and Everybody Else Is Full of Shit But Especially You!_, due out soon from Remainder House…) Does that include “If you’re not with me, you’re a traitorous, lying scumbag - 2005”, where he remixes the classic with a new funky backbeat while sampling Martina McBride? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/254 "2005-11-17T18:06:24Z")
**FinnAgain** posted [this discussion of proof concerning torture](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6805975&postcount=205) in the **Updike/New Iskander** pitting, but it bears repeating here. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/255 "2005-11-18T00:10:49Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m not going to go through 10,000 pages of documents in order to disprove your allegations of the left being traitors and slanderers for reporting what is in the news. Then you are hardly in a position to state it’s a fact. Somebody else claiming it, doesn’t make it a fact. > [@](#): > > Over 100 people have died while in custody of the government. Of those, an estimated 21-31 were homicides. How many of those homicides were perpetrated by American Forces. How many of those died as a result of torture? Stop fucking around and whining about how _hard_ it is to support your little slander and support it or retract it. > [@](#): > > That’s what the ACLU said. I, unlike the ACLU, do not have the time, inclination, nor commitment to sue for the release of all the documentation or to review all of the documents released. That’s an appeal to authority which is another classical logical fallacy. It’s interesting to note that several of the document the ACLU claims to have in its posession and available under the FOIA is not available on its site. Doubly interesting since these are the ones that supposedly contain the damning evidence. > [@](#): > > No, were not debating that. You might want to check the last several pages. > [@](#): > > Finn and others have provided citations supporting that proposition. Citations from people who have had the chance to investigate the issues far beyond the abilities of you or I. Another appeal to authority. I can play that game too. The army and the government has much more resources than the ACLU. Bush is in charge of the government. He assures us we do not torture. You see the problem? Appeals to athority are rhetorically useless and logical fallacies. > [@](#): > > You’ve made it perfectly clear that you won’t accept that as proof, Why should accept that athority when we have it differently from higher athority, namely the commander-in-chief? Once again, I hope you see the problem. You can’t just say “these guys say so, it must be true.” > [@](#): > > yet you seem more than willing to do the exact same thing you accuse others of doing: making accusations without evidence. This is untrue. For the fourth or fifth time, I have an explicit agreement from Finnagain that he is a traitor if he cannot prove his allegation. I have permission and mutually agreed upon conditions beforehand. > [@](#): > > The majority of my time, clearly wasted with you, has been to point out that you’re full of shit when you say this evidence is a complete fabrication, that the left are traitors and slanderers. No just the one who insist slander is fact, and such. > [@](#): > > Luckily for your massive ego, my posts have been about YOU, as a poster, being a complete and utter asshole. I guess you’re attacking me because you can’t actually support the argument you’re making. > [@](#): > > yet who remains completely blase about the torture and possible murder of prisoners. And yet you do nothing for the starving children of Somalia. Why aren’t you worried about that? > [@](#): > > Other things that apparently don’t matter to you as much as a post on a fucking message board. If you held this administration to 1/10th of the standard you hold the ACLU, I’d expect you to be marching on Washington. Oh stop fucking whining. Support the argument or don’t but stop whining about how unfair it is that somebody actually called you on your slanderous bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/256 "2005-11-18T00:19:23Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Why should accept that athority when we have it differently from higher athority, namely the commander-in-chief? Hmm. Why should we doubt the word of the C-in-C? Boy, that’s a toughie. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/257 "2005-11-18T00:34:07Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Then you are hardly in a position to state it’s a fact. Somebody else claiming it, doesn’t make it a fact. > > How many of those homicides were perpetrated by American Forces. How many of those died as a result of torture? > > Stop fucking around and whining about how _hard_ it is to support your little slander and support it or retract it. For the 5th time, it’s not mine. It’s not an argument I made. I have no independent idea, and I’m not going to spend the time to research it, because, to be honest, I see no purpose. I’ve said this isn’t my slander, but like the brain dead sponge you are, you still don’t get it. Are you really that stupid? On second thought, I’ll withdraw that question. > [@Scylla](#): > > That’s an appeal to authority which is another classical logical fallacy. It’s interesting to note that several of the document the ACLU claims to have in its posession and available under the FOIA is not available on its site. Doubly interesting since these are the ones that supposedly contain the damning evidence. The fallacy of an appeal to authority requires that the authority not be in a position to be determine the evidence. The ACLU is. They went to court, sued to get the documents, and reviewed them. You have done nothing to question those findings. All of which, for the 10th time, has nothing to do with my point. > [@Scylla](#): > > You might want to check the last several pages. It’s what you’re arguing. What I’m arguing is that you’re an asshole. And with every post of yours, you’re doing your best to support my assertion. > [@Scylla](#): > > Another appeal to authority. I can play that game too. The army and the government has much more resources than the ACLU. Bush is in charge of the government. He assures us we do not torture. Finally an attempt on your part to counter the ACLU’s evidence. Well done. Surprised it took this long, and, to be honest, I’m not putting a whole lot of credence in it. But at least it’s a start. > [@Scylla](#): > > This is untrue. For the fourth or fifth time, I have an explicit agreement from Finnagain that he is a traitor if he cannot prove his allegation. I have permission and mutually agreed upon conditions beforehand. Bully for you. And the other millions of people who are “left” of you, including myself, who’ve you’ve accused of slander and treason? Did the ACLU agree with you? The New York Times? > [@Scylla](#): > > No just the one who insist slander is fact, and such. You said it was a fabrication? It’s not. What am I missing? > [@Scylla](#): > > I guess you’re attacking me because you can’t actually support the argument you’re making. Actually, you’ve done more to support my argument that your an asshole than anything I could have done. > [@Scylla](#): > > And yet you do nothing for the starving children of Somalia. Why aren’t you worried about that? Another classic Scylla dodge. > [@Scylla](#): > > Oh stop fucking whining. Support the argument or don’t but stop whining about how unfair it is that somebody actually called you on your slanderous bullshit. God you really are that dumb. Willfully, incredibly stupid. You apparently have the ability to read and comprehend, but you still refuse to do so. Here’s my argument: You’re an asshole. You can argue that you’re not an asshole, and best of luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/258 "2005-11-18T00:58:18Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > For the 5th time, it’s not mine. It’s not an argument I made. I have no independent idea, and I’m not going to spend the time to research it, because, to be honest, I see no purpose. I’ve said this isn’t my slander, Then why defend it? > [@](#): > > The fallacy of an appeal to authority requires that the authority not be in a position to be determine the evidence. The ACLU is. This doesn’t actually make any sense that I can see. The one thing for sure is that it has nothing to do with the actual fallacy of the appeal to authority. > [@](#): > > They went to court, sued to get the documents, and reviewed them. You have done nothing to question those findings. Yes I did. I did it several times. Each time it was ignored. For the fourth or fifth time, the reports they claim to be quoting from, and claim they received from the FOIA and claim to have put up so that there findings can be verified… **Don’t appear to be there.** The reports are indexed. The specific ones they refer to **aren’t there**. > [@](#): > > It’s what you’re arguing. What I’m arguing is that you’re an asshole. And with every post of yours, you’re doing your best to support my assertion. I **am** an asshole. I’ve been claiming it for ages: [http://www.pursam.org/teemings/extras/general/scylla5.html](http://www.pursam.org/teemings/extras/general/scylla5.html) > [@](#): > > Bully for you. And the other millions of people who are “left” of you, including myself, who’ve you’ve accused of slander and treason? Did the ACLU agree with you? The New York Times? I’m sorry, for what did I accuse you of slander and treason? Anyway, I know it’s ok since I have Finn’s permission. We made a deal. > [@](#): > > You said it was a fabrication? It’s not. What am I missing? I’m sorry. Are you stating that you know for a fact that our soldiers have tortured dozens to death? > [@](#): > > Actually, you’ve done more to support my argument that your an asshole than anything I could have done. That’s true. You don’t debate very well. I’ve been claiming for years that I’m an asshole, so this is a hardly a stunning victory on your part. > [@](#): > > God you really are that dumb. Willfully, incredibly stupid. You apparently have the ability to read and comprehend, but you still refuse to do so. The cites don’t prove what you say they do. > [@](#): > > Here’s my argument: You’re an asshole. You can argue that you’re not an asshole, and best of luck with that. Well… yeah. So? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/259 "2005-11-18T01:01:13Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Another appeal to authority. I can play that game too. The army and the government has much more resources than the ACLU. Bush is in charge of the government. He assures us we do not torture. > > You see the problem? Appeals to athority are rhetorically useless and logical fallacies. Riiiight. But the problem with your example is that the Army and Bush have a lot to gain by claiming we don’t torture, while the ACLU has no reason to make the shit up, unless you’re paranoid enough to believe that their goal is to smear the president. I mean, the ACLU is _liberal_, isn’t it? You’re being puposefully disingenuous if you’re saying every authority’s claims has equal value, regardless of whether they have a stake in the issue or not. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/260 "2005-11-18T01:23:52Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > …Here’s my argument: You’re an asshole. You can argue that you’re not an asshole, and best of luck with that… > [@Scylla](#): > > …I am an asshole. I’ve been claiming it for ages… It is good when we can reach consensus on the flaming issues of the day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=14)