# Our freedom is on it's last legs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856 "2005-11-07T02:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/281 "2005-11-18T15:53:52Z")
> [@Fritz](#): > > You’re right **FinnAgain**. This last really brought it home to me: Uppy is Profoundly, Cataclysmically Stupid. > > Uppy, do you think that you’ll deflect the abuse that you’re receiving in the other thread by riding on the coattails of another poster criticizing **FinnAgain** in this thread? > “Me too! Me too!..um, where is your evidence that dozens of people have been tortured to death by U.S. troops?” > > Christ, you’re a dolt. > > Such a concept: the Cataclysmically Stupid teamed up with the Monumentally Thickheaded. No wonder Bush was elected a second time. > **Bush said it > I believe it > That Settles It** > > Scylla, is this how you are reasoning? > > You seem to place a lot of stock on what is and isn’t available via the Freedom of Information Act. Are you under the impression that our government is _anxious_ to release information that’s inflammatory…even explosive? Do you think they would fall all over themselves to give the American Public _proof_ that they are involved in torture? > > Don’t you think that the Bush administration would be falling all over themselves to provide _proof_ that torture _didn’t_ occur, if they _had_ such proof? > > There’s a shitload of smoke in the media regarding the question of torture. Maybe there’s no government-provided proof that torture did occur, but there’s a fire there. I have some simple questions. IF there has never ever been any abuse or torture, then why were a couple of soldiers (and I use that term loosely) convicted of it (Private England and others). Why would a Captain Fishabck destroy his own career to file complaints? Why would the Inspectore General office have a report (which verifies Fishback’s charges)? Why would there be so many easily available phots of the victims? Burns, bruises, all over the victims. The “president” of Iraq fiercely defended the “no torture” argument by claiming that at least nobody has been beheaded. Hmmmmm. **Bush said it I believe it That Settles It** Fuck Bush. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/282 "2005-11-18T15:54:56Z")
Sorry about the multi post - bad lag here. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/283 "2005-11-18T16:23:09Z")
As usual [Tom Tomorrow](http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=19887) has a cogent insight into the problem. Are Bush apologists stupid or lying? At this point these are the only alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/284 "2005-11-18T16:34:15Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > As usual [Tom Tomorrow](http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=19887) has a cogent insight into the problem. > > Are Bush apologists stupid or lying? > > At this point these are the only alternatives. Don’t forget, the PIPA Report also. It was not a very flattering report. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/285 "2005-11-18T18:05:23Z")
Another one bites the dust??? [http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/feith.investigation.reut/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/feith.investigation.reut/index.html) > [@CNN](#): > > Pentagon to probe Iraq war architect > Feith suspected of giving unverified intelligence to White House > WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Pentagon’s inspector general has agreed to review the prewar intelligence activities of former U.S. defense undersecretary Douglas Feith, a main architect of the Iraq war, congressional officials said on Thursday. > Democrats have accused Feith of manipulating information from sources, including discredited Iraqi politician Ahmad Chalabi, to suggest links between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda network, which masterminded the September 11, 2001, attacks. > Bush and other top administration officials cited alleged ties between Iraq and al Qaeda as a justification for military action. But the September 11 commission later reported that no collaborative relationship existed between the two. And both the CIA and the Defense Intelligence agency have dismissed one source of that information, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, as being unreliable. Full story > The inspector general’s office informed the Senate on October 19 that it would undertake a review after receiving separate requests from the Republican chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the ranking Democrat on the Senate Committee on Armed Services, officials said. > Congressional officials expect the review to look at whether Feith and his staff bypassed the CIA by giving the White House uncorroborated intelligence that sought to make a case for war in the months leading up to the 2003 Iraq invasion. > … A copy of Levin’s letter to Gimble, which was obtained by Reuters, asks the inspector general to consider 10 questions, including whether Feith’s office undercut the intelligence community by providing the White House with its own analysis that went beyond the scope of the underlying intelligence. > Levin also wants the inspector general to look into whether Feith misled Congress in January 2004 by providing oversight committees with reports dealing with the credibility of prewar intelligence on Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/286 "2005-11-18T18:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Gen. Tommy Franks once described former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith “the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth.” More recently, Larry Wilkerson, Colin Powell’s chief of staff at the State Department, said of Feith, “Seldom in my life have I met a dumber man.” Yeah, him. (Via _The Carpetbagger Report_, which comes highly recommend…) [http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/](http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/287 "2005-11-18T18:17:00Z")
Now, let’s go back to “the traitor thing” > [@DailyKOS](#): > > BREAKING: Scott McClellan Sent Into The War on Murtha > Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 06:05:12 PM PDT > The White House did it. They held a gun to Scotty’s head to spew out this officially sanctioned poison. > This, friends, is how the White House treats the people who actually DID support them on the war. The ones who truly believed they were doing the right thing at the outset. They piss all over him. Publicly. > These people are scum. Pure scum. > > Statement by the Press Secretary: > Congressman Murtha is a respected veteran and politician who has a record of supporting a strong America. So it is baffling that he is endorsing the policy positions of Michael Moore and the extreme liberal wing of the Democratic party. The eve of an historic democratic election in Iraq is not the time to surrender to the terrorists. After seeing his statement, we remain baffled – nowhere does he explain how retreating from Iraq makes America safer. > [@one of the respondents](#): > > You’re right. Murtha is resolute. (3.88 / 9) > I watched the video of this guy today and he won’t put up with any of it. His comment on Cheney and his five deferrments sealed it for me. Darth Cheney has been growling and grunting about “traitors” quite a bit, and we already know what Bush said in his pathetic “speech”. Now let’s go back to the original “purpose of this thread” - freedom. Refresh my memory. The original Patriot Act, as objectionable and stupid as it was, was sold to everyone as a temporary measur to save us from terror, wasn’t it? If so, then why the push to make it permanent? Gee, I guess the “temporary” thing was not true (?). Russ Feingold apparently is ready to filibuster the renewal of the PATRIOT Act. What will he read during the filibuster? The Bill of Rights! “This is worth the fight,” Senator Russell D. Feingold, a Wisconsin Democrat who serves on the Judiciary Committee, said in an interview. “I’ve cleared my schedule right up to Thanksgiving,” Mr. Feingold said, adding that he was making plans to read aloud from the Bill of Rights as part of a filibuster if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/288 "2005-11-18T18:50:17Z")
Let’s go back to the “traitors” one more time. [http://www.house.gov/georgemiller/statement51104.html](http://www.house.gov/georgemiller/statement51104.html) Mr. GEORGE MILLER of California. > [@GMiller](#): > > Mr. Speaker, millions of Americans throughout this country share my growing concern about the alarming language being used to demean anyone raising questions about American policy in Iraq. But we have been there before. > > Some would prefer that we ignore such blasphemy, that we treat such exaggerated rhetoric with the indifference it deserves. I respectfully disagree. I believe that we have learned a sad lesson from history of this and other countries that ignoring vicious political slurs encourages further abuse and undermines free speech and open debate. > > We have substantial disagreements about the wisdom of our course in Iraq. Those who disagree with our policies include highly decorated veterans, intelligence experts, some of our closest allies and millions of our constituents, a growing number every day. > > And yet, when a widely respected Member of the House, an honored veteran who has been a staunch supporter of the defense community through 30 years of congressional service, offered a somber analysis about the misdirection of our Iraqi effort, he was denounced by other Members as conducting `a calculated and a craven political stunt.'' ... He was speaking about our distinguished colleague, the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Murtha.) He called him `craven.’’ The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Murtha), craven? > > Craven is a strong word. It means gutless. It means spineless. It means cowardly, weak, fearful. It is a word that should never be used by a Member of Congress to describe another, and could never be used to describe the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Murtha). > > The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Murtha) joined the Marine Corps during the Korean War. He volunteered to serve in Vietnam, while those who accuse him managed to avoid military service. He is the first combat Vietnam veteran elected to Congress. He retired from the Marine Corps Reserves in 1990 and has been awarded the Navy Distinguished Service Medal and the USO’s Spirit of Hope Award for his many services to the men and women in the military. > > To even suggest that his impassioned and difficult statement about the course of the war in Iraq was a `political stunt'' is to insult a distinguished veteran and Congressman, and I denounce it in the strongest terms. ... Now we are told that those expressions of concern about the misdirection of the Iraqi campaign demonstrated that `the national Democratic Party declared its surrender on the war on terror.’’ Democrats were accused of giving ``aid and comfort to the enemy,’’ according to another Republican Member who never served in combat. > > Let every American understand the meaning of these words: It does not matter who you are, if you have worn the uniform of your country, if you have risked your life in combat; to those who use these words on the floor of the House, it does not matter. Challenge the policies of the Bush administration and House Republicans in Iraq, and you are ``giving aid comfort to the enemy.’’ You are surrendering to terrorism. > > In other words, you are a traitor. That is what these Republican Members would suggest about Members of Congress. > > Well, according to the latest poll, 60 percent of the American public think the situation in Iraq is out of control. Have we become a Nation of traitors in the eyes of the Republican leaders of this institution? > > Mr. Speaker, this disgraceful, demeaning, and insulting rhetoric has no place in the Congress, it has no place in America, and it should be denounced by every Member of this House, regardless of party and regardless of one’s position on Iraq. The day we lose our ability to voice our heartfelt views without having our patriotism demeaned is a dangerous day for democracy. … > Two years ago, the patriotism of Senator Max Cleland was challenged, a man who served in Vietnam and left three of his limbs there; a man who served honorably as the Secretary of Veterans’ Affairs and as a United States Senator. Apparently he did not lose enough limbs to prove his patriotism to those who attacked him, those who sought multiple deferments in the same war that cost Max Cleland his limbs. Those attacks cost him an election, too. … > And now, the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Murtha) is the target of this disgraceful, venal slander. > > It is time to stop. > > Americans deserve, and they want, an honest discussion on the issues, not a vicious assault on the integrity and the patriotism of distinguished men who carry their wounds of war. - Statement by Congressman George Miller on the House Floor \*How ironic that the loyalty and courage of certain people is being challenged by AWOL Bush and “Five Deferments” Cheney of all people. \* ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/289 "2005-11-18T20:33:28Z")
Feingold/Murtha in '08. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/290 "2005-11-18T21:07:33Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m not Republican. I’m not playing a game. When Finn says our soldiers are torturing dozens to death he is making an implication that characterizes our armed forces in general. > > Our soldiers do not deserve to be so characterized unless it can positively be demonstrated to the highest standard that it is true. > > That has not been done. > > It’s treason. You’re a scumbag if you do it. To do such a thing is to betray your country. You’re not supporting our soldiers if you do it, you’re indicting them. A person that does so does not deserve the freedoms they’ve betrayed. > > I can’t put it in stronger terms. \*\*NO, YOU FUCKING ASSWIPE, IT IS NOT TREASON! STOP USING THE WORD TREASON! STOP CALLING PEOPLE TRAITORS! THERE ARE NO GODDAMNED TRAITORS IN THIS THREAD, ONLY DISINGENUOUS ASSHOLES LIKE YOU! STOP USING THE WORD TREASON, YOU MCARTHYITE DIPSHIT! STOP CALLING PEOPLE TRAITORS! THEY ARE NOT TRAITORS, THEIR ACTIONS ARE NOT TREASONOUS.\*\* If you think anyone here is guilty of treason, you need to report them to the FBI right now. Otherwise, apologize. I’m sick and fucking tired of seeing people who want their country to do the right thing being called traitors by lying warmongers. You bring disgrace to America, **Scylla**. Accusations of treason are the hallmarks of dictatorships and totalitairanism. Aplogize for your use of the word treason and recognize that everyone here just wants what’s best for the country. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/291 "2005-11-18T21:37:00Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [Here](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/) > > It took me two minutes. …that link is the crux of **Scylla’s** analysis. In his follow-up post to **FinnAgain** challenge response, he examined that page, and broke down bit by bit the first PDF autopsy report. While I believe his his extrapolations are fundumentally flawed, your cited link has already been examined by **Scylla**. What he is pointing out is that the documents cited in the ACLU’s indictment of the government do not appear on your link. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/292 "2005-11-18T21:54:08Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > … Aplogize for your use of the word treason and recognize that everyone here just wants what’s best for the country. Forget it, Jake. It’s Chinatown… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/293 "2005-11-18T22:28:24Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > What he is pointing out is that the documents cited in the ACLU’s indictment of the government do not appear on your link. The problem with that, of course, is that the military itself has admitted that the ACLU was correct. [As quoted here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6805698&postcount=249) [And cited here. (among other places on the 'net)](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-abuse25oct25,1,7465698.story?coll=la-headlines-world) > [@](#): > > Army officials noted that the service had prosecuted several soldiers on charges of detainee abuse. The case of former Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Mowhoush, whose death on Nov. 26, 2003, **was caused by what the Army described as “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression”** — allegedly when he was forced into a sleeping bag — has resulted in three prosecutions, said Maj. Wayne Marotto, an Army spokesman. As such it seems that picking at the ACLU’s website’s poor organization of over 70,000 pages of documents is somewhat obfuscatory. The Military already confirmed this case. And, I would point out, that if the ACLU were making things up out of whole cloth, does anybody, anybody at all in this thread, think that Team Bush wouldn’t have raked them over the coals for it? Wouldn’t we see lawsuits for libel? I realize that’s not proof, but it’s mighty interesting. If the ACLU were really making up documents rather than archiving them poorly on their website, someone in the government would’ve done something. That they have not, does indeed suggest that there was no actionable content. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/294 "2005-11-18T22:52:33Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …that link is the crux of **Scylla’s** analysis. In his follow-up post to **FinnAgain** challenge response, he examined that page, and broke down bit by bit the first PDF autopsy report. While I believe his his extrapolations are fundumentally flawed, your cited link has already been examined by **Scylla**. What he is pointing out is that the documents cited in the ACLU’s indictment of the government do not appear on your link. I presume that **Scylla** ’s statement > [@Scylla](#): > > According to that it’s documents 3220-27 and 3305. Those documents though are not available to look at on that page for some reason.(post #207 – **kd99** ) is an example of the documents he says were not available on the site.\* The thing is, that yes, the pages are there, and reachable by anyone whose system doesn’t balk at opening a .pdf link. In the case of 3220-27, one can reach the relevant pages by clicking on the link for [3212](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3212.pdf), and proceeding to page 9 of the resultant document. Page 3305 can be found as page 10 of the document linked by [3296](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3296.pdf). \ ***Scylla** , If I have mistaken your meaning from the above quote, please forgive me, and clarify. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/295 "2005-11-18T22:53:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > … That they have not, does indeed suggest that there was no actionable content. “Suggest”? Yes, rather. If the ACLU gave them such an opening to cut off their balls, the Bushiviks would be on them like a starving dog on a poisoned pork chop! The champagne corks would be popping at every wing nut web site in the virtual universe, they’d be partyin’ like it’s 1899! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/296 "2005-11-18T23:00:12Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The thing is, that yes, the pages are there, and reachable by anyone whose system doesn’t balk at opening a .pdf link. Check, and mate. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/297 "2005-11-18T23:02:41Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > \*\*THERE ARE NO GODDAMNED TRAITORS IN THIS THREAD, ONLY DISINGENUOUS ASSHOLES LIKE YOU! What, all of us? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/298 "2005-11-18T23:06:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Check, and mate. It doesn’t matter. Two major points refute all of it. Point 1 Bush already said something or other and oh yeah aid and comfort to the enemy and craven Democrats! Point 2 The ACLU hates America. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/299 "2005-11-18T23:41:00Z")
Nice catch, **kd**. I spent the better part of my morning trying to track down that document, unsuccessfully. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/300 "2005-11-19T00:16:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > \ ***Scylla** , If I have mistaken your meaning from the above quote, please forgive me, and clarify. Very gracious, given that I doubt we’ll be seeing him in this thread again… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=16)