# Our freedom is on it's last legs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856 "2005-11-07T02:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/301 "2005-11-19T00:25:47Z")
Actually, I think **Scylla** was focusing on the phrase “tortured to death” vs., say simply murdered/killed while in custody. Not where I’d like to hang my proverbial ass, but there it is. Torture is reprehensible. We (via our military) have done it, Bush declaimers notwithstanding (we’ve actually tried and convicted some soldiers of abuse, and remembering that those were referred to as “the tip of the iceberg” and how badly the administration has worked to keep the other pics and videos from public domain). I also don’t understand the stance that finds it treasonous to report on, comment on, admit various horrible stuff happened, and sees it as worse than the horrible stuff happening. So, in short, while we have proof that “Dozens” of homicides occured, and that “reprehensible acts” were committed, it may indeed fall short of proving that “dozens” were “tortured to death” (vs. simply murdered by say, choking in the traditional sense, hanging, bullets, beatings etc). Is it any less reprehensible that “dozens of homicides” occured? not in my book. Is it treasonous? hell no, it is the truth. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/302 "2005-11-19T00:41:29Z")
Not good enough, **wring**. Unless **Finn** can provide **Scylla** an affidavit from God Almighty, notorized by Gabriel, testifying that dozens of Iraqi detainees were tortured to death by uniformed American service personnel, then he has not proved it to be so. Therefore, he, myself, John Kerry and a cast of thousands are all traitors. Its all quite simple when you understand how he thinks. As it were. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/303 "2005-11-19T00:45:04Z")
> [@wring](#): > > Actually, I think **Scylla** was focusing on the phrase “tortured to death” vs., say simply murdered/killed while in custody. Not where I’d like to hang my proverbial ass, but there it is. I will admit that my original phrasing was imprecise, but the exact words I used were [“…people who’ve died under torture by our forces[.]”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6793071&postcount=98) Perhaps I should’ve clarified by saying “died under the effects of torture either immediately or later succumbing to injuries.” But then again, I doubt it would’ve mattered much, America hating traitor that I am. I do think it would’ve helped for all of us to define our terms, but as I believe [this exchange](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6812325#post6812325) shows, we’re still talking about the same essential acts: physical violence which culminates in death either right away or over a span of time. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/304 "2005-11-19T00:49:58Z")
well, yea, like I said, not where I"d like to hang my ass. Reminds me of: 1. my son when he was 3 or 4 “no, mom, I didn’t kick my cousin, I merely pushed him with my foot”. and 2. The folks who state that “AIDS” doesn’t kill 'cause the cause of death listed on the certificate is often something like pnuemonia or whatever. a distinction w/o a difference, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/305 "2005-11-19T00:53:57Z")
Agreed without reservation, I just wanted to clarify my position. Isn’t it nice to be able to define our terms and discuss them rather than answering to charges that we’re giving aid and comfort to our enemies? It’s like, I went to a Pit thread… and a rational discussion broke out! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/306 "2005-11-19T01:10:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …t’s like, I went to a Pit thread… and a rational discussion broke out! 😉 There’s a certain…absence…of late. Where _can_ that little scamp have gotten off to? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/307 "2005-11-19T01:13:56Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Very gracious, given that I doubt we’ll be seeing him in this thread again… Well, I might want to ask him for permission one day to adopt > [@Scylla](#): > > CHOKEONATURDLEFTWINGCUTESYSEMANTICBITCH!!! so I think gracious is the best strategy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/308 "2005-11-19T01:28:43Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > It’s treason. You’re a scumbag if you do it. To do such a thing is to betray your country. You’re not supporting our soldiers if you do it, you’re indicting them. A person that does so does not deserve the freedoms they’ve betrayed. Compare to the first “gem” of wisdom uttered by our very own Captain America: > [@Scylla](#): > > I beleive in civil liberties, all of them. I just place them on a graduated scale. I am happy to compromise some of the niceties like privacy a little bit so the important ones (like not getting blown up) are preserved. Someone who is willing to give away whatever freedoms we have, lecturing US about deserving to lose our freedoms. It’s a wonder I let this pass before. So, in short, it’s OK to lose freedoms because we are at “war” (or someone is paranoid?). But if you dare question Der Leader, you deserve to lose all the freedoms that are so valiantly protected by the war, Field Marshall Bush, and the Patriot Act? Oh well. Kerry, Murtha, McCain, the Army IG Office, Cpt Fishback, Lt Col Kwiatkowski, the ACLU, Special WhateverHisTitleIs Fitzgerald, Maj. Wayne Marotto, Col Wilkerson, the CIA, the FBI, George Tenet, the entire Dem party, and moderate Republicans etc are all traitors. COOL!!! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/309 "2005-11-19T01:45:14Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I presume that **Scylla** ’s statementis an example of the documents he says were not available on the site.\* The thing is, that yes, the pages are there, and reachable by anyone whose system doesn’t balk at opening a .pdf link. In the case of 3220-27, one can reach the relevant pages by clicking on the link for [3212](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3212.pdf), and proceeding to page 9 of the resultant document. Page 3305 can be found as page 10 of the document linked by [3296](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3296.pdf). > > \ ***Scylla** , If I have mistaken your meaning from the above quote, please forgive me, and clarify. I spent a lot of time looking for that. Glad that you found it. That’s one of the two I couldn’t find. Ok, reading it, it appears that he was severely injured while being captured. The autopsy report says his wounds were consistent with that. They put a hood on him overnight, and the combination of that and his busted ribs caused him to expire. Homicide. Clearly, he should have had medical treatment. Considering the fact that he was hooded while wounded and didn’t get medical treatment, it’s pretty clear he was abused. It does not however appear that he was tortured, does it? Very good catch KD. Thank you again for finding this. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/310 "2005-11-19T01:47:53Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [Here](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/) > > It took me two minutes. > > Don’t worry. I think you’re both. You miserable fucking moron. I linked to that page twice. Those are summaries. I’m looking and asked for the documents themselves. Sheesh. Dipshit. KD found one. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/311 "2005-11-19T03:29:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I will admit that my original phrasing was imprecise, but the exact words I used were [“…people who’ve died under torture by our forces[.]”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6793071&postcount=98) I find that precise. > [@](#): > > Perhaps I should’ve clarified by saying “died under the effects of torture either immediately or later succumbing to injuries.” But then again, I doubt it would’ve mattered much, America hating traitor that I am. Provided you include “by our forces” that means the same as the first. > [@](#): > > I do think it would’ve helped for all of us to define our terms, but as I believe [this exchange](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6812325#post6812325) shows, we’re still talking about the same essential acts:physical violence which culminates in death either right away or over a span of time. No. “physical violence which culminates in death either right away or over a span of time.” Is not the definition of torture. Torture is pain and/or injury inflicted deliberately to elicit information or an action, such as a confession. Torture does not need to be physical violence in order to be torture. Deliberate infliction of pain and/or injury is merely abuse unless the coercive element is added whence it becomes torture. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/312 "2005-11-19T03:41:45Z")
I see. So if the soldier in question inflicted “abuse” to the point of death, but had no particular motive in mind beyond aimless sadism, then this does not qualify as “torture”? And if we provide irrefutable proof of such…unfortunate breakdowns of discipline…in the dozens, _nonetheless_ the perpetrators are slandered by disloyal traitors if they call this “torture”? With a straight face, no less. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/313 "2005-11-19T04:02:14Z")
**Scylla** :[Nothing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6808700&postcount=211) at all [has changed.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6808751&postcount=213) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/314 "2005-11-19T04:14:54Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Very good catch KD. Thank you again for finding this. All part of the service. … Ummm… … \<_oh, hell, no time like the present_\> > [@](#): > > CHOKEONATURDLEFTWINGCUTESYSEMANTICBITCH!!! Can I have that as my .sig? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/315 "2005-11-19T04:43:33Z")
BTW, what the conclusion about Freedom’s legs? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/316 "2005-11-19T05:47:05Z")
> [@](#): > > **Scylla** : They put a hood on him overnight, and the combination of that and his busted ribs caused him to expire\*. > > Homicide\*\*. > > Clearly, he should have had medical treatment. Considering the fact that he was hooded while wounded and didn’t get medical treatment, it’s pretty clear he was abused. > > It does not however appear that he was tortured, does it? \*died \*\*murder Were people on the death marches in the Phillipines near the end of WWII being interrogated? Is it torture to be fed nothing and worked to death if you are not being interrogated? When the insurgents behead someone, is it only tortuous if the victim was being interrogated? If you are being drawn and quartered, it hurts just as much without questioning as it does with. And _that_ is the issue – not some technical definition designed to justify inhumane treatment of the other side. (Sweet Jesus, we are becoming just like the monsters at POW camps that I heard about after WWII when I was a child.) **Scylla** , your comments are some of the most chilling that I have read on the Dope. You have been personally kind to me in the time that we have known each other. I _refuse_ to believe that you are so cold of heart as to be technical about suffering. I think maybe you got yourself backed into a corner with your own anger. The source of the insults is either something of that nature or you must label me a **traitor** to my country too. I wish you peace. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/317 "2005-11-19T06:01:20Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > BTW, what the conclusion about Freedom’s legs? That the Right doesn’t have one to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/318 "2005-11-19T06:37:45Z")
**Zoe** , that was a very good post, and much calmer than I could’ve managed. > [@jayjay](#): > > That the Right doesn’t have one to stand on. Oh, no, but you see people were just murdered, so if you say they were tortued instead of murdered you’re a lying America-hating traitor. After all, if you say that a murderer was guilty of a lesser crime you’ve slandered him. He deserves his due! And, those who we’ve killed? They were just ‘abused’ to death. So if you say that they were tortured instead of ‘abused’, you’re a lying America-hating traitor because as we all know, as long as they’re not asking questions while they’re murdering you, it’s not as bad. “The Left” should all be ashamed of themselves for not learning Newspeak so that the ‘abuse’ leading to the ‘expiration’ of our ‘detainees’ isn’t viewed as torture. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/319 "2005-11-19T09:12:43Z")
[This](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866) just in: > [@](#): > > \*\*Harsh interrogation techniques authorized by top officials of the CIA have led to questionable confessions and the death of a detainee since the techniques were first authorized in mid-March 2002, ABC News has been told by former and current intelligence officers and supervisors…. > > The CIA sources described a list of six “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques” instituted in mid-March 2002 and used, they said, on a dozen top al Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe. According to the sources, only a handful of CIA interrogators are trained and authorized to use the techniques: > > 1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him. > > 2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear. > > 3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage. > > 4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions. > > 5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water. > > 6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.\*\* I seem to remember reading something about extended standing as being a standard, and extremely effective, torture technique in the old Soviet Union. > [@](#): > > \*\*When properly used, the techniques appear to be closely monitored and are signed off on in writing on a case-by-case, technique-by-technique basis, according to highly placed current and former intelligence officers involved in the program. In this way, they say, enhanced interrogations have been authorized for about a dozen high value al Qaeda targets — Khalid Sheik Mohammed among them. According to the sources, all of these have confessed, none of them has died, and all of them remain incarcerated… > > Two sources also told ABC that the techniques — authorized for use by only a handful of trained CIA officers — have been misapplied in at least one instance. > > The sources said that in that case a young, untrained junior officer caused the death of one detainee at a mud fort dubbed the “salt pit” that is used as a prison. They say the death occurred when the prisoner was left to stand naked throughout the harsh Afghanistan night after being doused with cold water. He died, they say, of hypothermia. > > According to the sources, a second CIA detainee died in Iraq and a third detainee died following harsh interrogation by Department of Defense personnel and contractors in Iraq. CIA sources said that in the DOD case, the interrogation was harsh, but did not involve the CIA.\*\* Read the entire article. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/320 "2005-11-19T13:05:02Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > You miserable fucking moron. I linked to that page twice. Those are summaries. I’m looking and asked for the documents themselves. > > Sheesh. Dipshit. KD found one. That’s it? That’s your response? Sad. Really sad. > [@Scylla](#): > > Let’s see if that report is available: > > Looks like “003260 -003261” or “013279 - 013288” > > Here we go: > > [http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/...102405/3260.pdf](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/...102405/3260.pdf) > > Nope never mind. That doesn’t say anything useful and I don’t see any of the other ones. So, it doesn’t look like that one’s available either. Again, feel free to look for yourself, and let me know if you find it.From Post 207 again If you look at the Title of Record, 3260 is a preliminary autopsy result. In the Description of Record it says “Final autopsy report of this individual with more details is at DOD 013279. DOD 003323 lists an autopsy of the same date with the notation “Q[uestioned] by NSWT [Navy Seals], struggled/interrogated/died sleeping.”” DOD 13279 is [this document](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/13279.pdf) which is the full autopsy report, and 3323 is [here](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3296.pdf). Of course you have to scroll down to the exact page. To be honest, I gave you too much credit. When you said that you couldn’t find documents I thought those documents weren’t there, for whatever reason. I put my faith in your abilities to find them. My bad. > [@Scylla](#): > > “The fact that in another case cited by the report, a prisoner died of asphyxiation and blunt force injuries after he was left standing, shackled to the top of a door frame, with a gag in his mouth won’t convince you.” > > Show me that autopsy report.From Scylla’s post #240 A quick look at the page I (and you) linked to indicates it’s most likely the one that says: "Examination of the neck structures revealed hemorrhage into the strap muscles and fractures of the thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone. History of asphyxia, secondary to occlusion of the oral airway. Pleural and pulmonary adhesions. Hypertensive cardiovascular disease. According to report provided by the US army CID, the detainee was shackled to the top of a doorframe with a gag in his mouth at the time he lost consciousness and became pulseless. The severe blunt force injuries, the hanging position, and the obstruction of the oral cavity with a gag contributed to this individual’s death. DOD 00329 refers to this case as “gagged in standing restraint” DOD 003329 refers to this case as “1 blunt force trama and choking; gagged in standing restraint.” DOD 003324 refers to this case with a note indicating “Q[uestioned] by OGA [Other Governmental Agency - non-military, often refers to CIA], gagged in standing restraint.” , which is listed as DOD documents 003235 - DOD 3241; DOD003307. Now clicking on the DOD 3235 link gives us the autopsy report [here](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3235.pdf). And DOD 3307 can be found [here](http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3296.pdf), and scrolling down. > [@Scylla](#): > > I was getting a little tired yesterday of dicking around on that cite, and, I have to admit to being a little suspicious that while they have lots of documents available, the salacious ones from which they excerpt don’t seem to be available. Now that it is the weekend, I’ll have some more time to help if you need more help finding documents. > [@Scylla](#): > > Or, maybe I’m just to dumb to find them. Hmmmm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=17)