# Our freedom is on it's last legs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856 "2005-11-07T02:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/41 "2005-11-11T00:26:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Las Vegas Mayor Oscar B. Goodman loves to remind visitors of Sin City’s oh-so-discreet tagline: “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.” But since the New Year’s celebrations ringing in 2004, he has had to modify the motto. Fearing a terrorist attack, the FBI descended on casinos, car rental agencies, storage warehouses, and other Las Vegas businesses with sheaves of “national security letters” demanding financial records covering about 1 million revelers. Startled business owners who questioned the action were told they had one choice: cough up their documents or wind up in court. [Business Week, Nov. 10](http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/nov2005/nf20051110_9709_db016.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/42 "2005-11-11T00:31:19Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Our country is at war and our government has the obligation to protect the American people. There’s an enemy that lurks and plots and plans and wants to hurt America again. So you bet we’ll aggressively pursue them. > > Do you want to wait for a mushroom cloud over your city because the government’s hands are tied by bureaucratic red tape? After all, if you’ve done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. Your location is all-telling. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/43 "2005-11-11T00:43:27Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Read the article and tell me your thoughts. Uh-huh. Nice try. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/44 "2005-11-11T00:48:15Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Uh-huh. > > Nice try. Yeah, **lonesome**! You’re not going to get **Isky** to admit that he HAS thoughts _that_ easily… ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/45 "2005-11-11T00:50:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yeah, **lonesome**! You’re not going to get **Isky** to admit that he HAS thoughts _that_ easily… And in any event, he has his tinfoil helmet on so _you_ can’t steal them. _:: points accusingly ::_ ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/46 "2005-11-11T02:20:02Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > So as long as we’re talking about lost freedoms, how does everyone feel about Connecticut’s & New Jersey’s use of Eminent domain to seize property and sell it to developers rather than public use? > > Just asking, I know it frightens the hell out of me. > > Jim Sure it scares me. So does the Patriot Act, secret searches without warrants, secret lockups without trials, all of it. I like mswas’ attitude, but I doubt I’d have the nerve to tell an FBI guy to fuck off. I’d sure make a lot of copies of their “letter” for CYA/revenge purposes though, and they’d be widely circulated among ACLU lawyers, and my government attorneys/associates/cronies. Always keep a CYA Pearl Harbor file. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/47 "2005-11-11T03:57:34Z")
There really are terrorists. They really are trying to kill us. I suppose that when the Titanic was sinking there were some who complained about the quality of the Waiters’ service. I beleive in civil liberties, all of them. I just place them on a graduated scale. I am happy to compromise some of the niceties like privacy a little bit so the important ones (like not getting blown up) are preserved. I beleive we are at war. I don’t think it’s a game, or hyperbole for political purposes. I think it’s real. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/48 "2005-11-11T04:05:08Z")
> [@Benjamin Franklin](#): > > Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety > deserve neither liberty nor safety Terrorist sympathizing putz :wally ! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/49 "2005-11-11T04:07:12Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > There really are terrorists. They really are trying to kill us. > > I suppose that when the Titanic was sinking there were some who complained about the quality of the Waiters’ service. > > I beleive in civil liberties, all of them. I just place them on a graduated scale. I am happy to compromise some of the niceties like privacy a little bit so the important ones (like not getting blown up) are preserved. > > I beleive we are at war. I don’t think it’s a game, or hyperbole for political purposes. I think it’s real. Eminent Domain abuses does not fight Terrorism. The eroding of the Fair use rights does not fight Terrorism. Could we stop these at least. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/50 "2005-11-11T04:11:34Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Eminent Domain abuses does not fight Terrorism. The eroding of the Fair use rights does not fight Terrorism. Could we stop these at least. > > Jim Yes, of course. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/51 "2005-11-11T04:12:40Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Terrorist sympathizing putz :wally ! Ben is my favorite American but he probably did not say this great and true quote. Please see: [Benjamin Franklin - Wikiquote](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Sourced) It was such a wise statement, people just assumed it must have been Ben’s. 😉 This does not make the quote any less true or valid. It was one of the founding principles of this country. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/52 "2005-11-11T04:19:47Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > There really are terrorists. They really are trying to kill us. [sarcasm]Wow, REALLY? I never would have guessed![/sarcasm] Of course, there are terrorists and there people like [Murat Kurnaz](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A3868-2005Mar26?language=printer). Who, according to the preponderance of evidence which was apparently declassified by accident, has no ties to terrorism whatsoever. But of course he’s still stuck in Guantanamo Bay because his Combat Status Review Tribunal declared him an enemy combatant based apparently on nothing more than unsubstantiated claims on a single unsupported memo by an unidentified government official. Oh, and Senator Lindsey Graham and 47 other U.S. Senators just did an end-run around _Rasul v. Bush_ by passing an amendment to the defense appropriations bill, [stripping federal courts of the jurisdiction to hear habeus corpus petitions of Guantanamo detainees](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051111/D8DPUVS80.html). If this amendment becomes law Mr. Kurnaz will have no further legal recourses and will be entirely at the mercy of the U.S. government apparatus which has already proven itself remarkably resistant to exculpatory evidence in his favor since 2002. [sarcasm]But you just keep patting us on the head, **Scylla** , and telling us to trust the government to look after us without any oversight whatsoever. I’m sure that’ll work out juuuust fine. [/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/53 "2005-11-11T04:28:54Z")
Actually, allow me to amend my statement somewhat in the name of accuracy. Mr. Kurnaz _is_ one of the few Guantanamo detainees to have had a day in federal court. It was apparently there that the officers in charge of his tribunal claimed to have classified evidence of his guilt, which later turned out to be minimal to say the least. Now Sen. Graham and other senators have decided that those Guantanamo detainees who haven’t seen a courtroom yet should be left entirely at the mercy of the CSRT system which worked so well for Mr. Kurnaz. But, hey, there’s a war on, as **Scylla** so helpfully points out. Trust the government to take care of you, they’ll do a bang-up job. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/54 "2005-11-11T04:33:49Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I beleive in civil liberties, all of them. I just place them on a graduated scale. Did you _read_ that article in Business Week? The FBI isn’t using these letters to target suspected terrorists, they’re casting fucking drift nets on the water, and seeing if any tuna get caught, along with **everything** else in the sea. The damned records can kept permanently, and to what end? I seem to recall a bit of an outcry a few years back when the NICS background check records of gun purchasers were kept for 90 days or so: > [@](#): > > First, the bill — which passed the House in 2003 — requires that federal records on lawful gun purchasers who are approved by the National Instant Check System be destroyed within 24 hours. As I detailed in an NRO article, when Congress created the NICS in 1993, it added an amendment to require destruction of records on law-abiding gun owners: “No department, agency, officer, or employee of the United States may…use the system established under this section to establish any system for the registration of firearms (or) firearm owners…” [Nat Review](http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200401270928.asp) That record keeping was a _terrible_ burden on our freedoms. Now they sweep up a million or so who just happen to be in Las Vegas at the wrong time, and create permanent records on them, and it’s not a problem? How the hell does _that_ logic work? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/55 "2005-11-11T18:18:44Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I beleive we are at war. I don’t think it’s a game, or hyperbole for political purposes. I think it’s real. Please post a link to the declaration of war, passed in Congress, so I can believe it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/56 "2005-11-11T20:04:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Please post a link to the declaration of war, passed in Congress, so I can believe it, too. Oh I’m sorry, my bad. I guess it’s not actually a “war” until it is officially declared by Congress. How clever of you to point that out. You’re very smart. CHOKEONATURDLEFTWINGCUTESYSEMANTICBITCH!!! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/57 "2005-11-11T20:08:35Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Oh I’m sorry, my bad. I guess it’s not actually a “war” until it is officially declared by Congress. How clever of you to point that out. You’re very smart. > > CHOKEONATURDLEFTWINGCUTESYSEMANTICBITCH!!! You were dismissing an entire major issue with one broad stroke that sounds like a line from a responsible worker in a police state. Once you surrender a liberty it is hard to get them back. Ours have been eroding very rapidly in the last few years. Does this make sense as a concern? Jim ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/58 "2005-11-11T20:18:09Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Eminent Domain abuses does not fight Terrorism. The eroding of the Fair use rights does not fight Terrorism. Could we stop these at least. > > Jim But 9/11 changed everything! I believe that’s the stock answer to all questions now. Besides, anyone who doesn’t bend over and spread their cheeks for Big Gubmint is a terror lovin’ traitor. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/59 "2005-11-11T20:24:15Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > But 9/11 changed everything! I believe that’s the stock answer to all questions now. Besides, anyone who doesn’t bend over and spread their cheeks for Big Gubmint is a terror lovin’ traitor. My opinion is those that really love the USA are the ones most willing to make trouble to preserve it. I willingly serve in the fight against Communist Dictatorships that once threatened the world. (Just showing my Right Wing Creds). I now wish to fight against the oppressors from within that endeavor to strip from us our long held and cherished liberties. To Bush, Cheney and their cronies I say give us back our beloved country. We were the good guys, now I am not so sure. Jim ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/60 "2005-11-11T21:12:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Oh I’m sorry, my bad. I guess it’s not actually a “war” until it is officially declared by Congress. How clever of you to point that out. You’re very smart. > > CHOKEONATURDLEFTWINGCUTESYSEMANTICBITCH!!! You used to be reasonable and funny. What happened to make you a Bush-lickin’ wanker, anyway? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=4)