# Our freedom is on it's last legs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856 "2005-11-07T02:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/81 "2005-11-12T06:46:22Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I beleive that truly disgusting and reprehensible individuals such as yourself… > > […] > > I don’t understand how you can make up shit with such facility. > > […] > > You act as if I give a shit what you think of me. For that to matter, I have to respect you. I don’t. > > […] > > If you are anything but the total idiot you have portrayed yourself in this thread to be… > > […] > > I think you’re a loser and a dishonest asshole for attempting to frame it as such. Allow me to assure you that the sentiment is now entirely mutual. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/82 "2005-11-12T12:45:12Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he become a monster. > And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes back into you.” I don’t think that’s one quote, and I think the second part goes: “When you gaze into the abyss the abyss must also gaze into you” Personally, I take heart in that. All you lefties are like “Oh, no! The Abyss. It’s looking at us! Run away! Hide! It’s going to see us, and know what weak-ass pussies we are!” Meanwhle, Bush Rummy et al will be like “You best not be looking at me or you’re going to get 'byss slapped.” Seriously, what the quote means is the Abyss takes your measure. Anyway, life’s abyss and then you die. > [@](#): > > Wow… so even without the “Koran flushing”, you think all the instances of torture murder and rape that’ve occured in our prisons don’t matter? No. I give them about as much credibility as if they came from Baghdad Bob. > [@](#): > > Fallacy of hasty generaliztion much? Yes, that’s what you guys are doing, by assuming individual rights violations, if they actually occur are the norm based on individual accounts. > [@](#): > > Besides, I thought Rather simply didn’t perform due dilligence with the ‘evidence’ of Bush’s nat’ guard service, and that the Koran story was based on the word of detainees which turned out to be incorrect. am I mis-re-membering? No. That’s correct. To me they indicate a selective perception and selection looking to support a preconveived notion and those drawing conclusions from or willing to support such are not to be trusted. > [@](#): > > Also, on the issue of the war, IIRC the resolution authorized the use of force if it was necessary. Bush was claiming that there was a way to avoid the war, when he was lying all the time and planned on forcing the nation into war even if they ahd to distort intel in order to do it. We had two resolutions authorizing the use of force. The Dems wanted a second one so they could show how much they supported the use of force. Make no mistake, the second one was an endorsement of the President’s decision before the fact. Read the transcripts with all of Kerry’s and Kennedy’s “Their can be no doubt that Saddam posesses WMDS and is one of the worst dictators…” As for the second part, the SIC saw the same data the President did and came to the same conclusion, and a special bipartisan committee concluded there was no manipulation. What leg do you stand on? > [@](#): > > Honestly, do you believe this? > What, Abu Graib is a summer camp and it’s just those Damn Libruls who’re making a big stink about it? Yes. > [@](#): > > Seriously **Scylla** , I’ve generally found you to be a thoughtful and articulare conservative Doper, but this shit is just nuts. No. It’s Bananas. B.A.N.A.N.A.S! > [@](#): > > And would attacking all of “the left” be consistent with those things **Scylla**? Yes. It needs to be attacked. > [@](#): > > Draw large conclusions from disputable and fragmentary evidence? > Isn’t that something like that fallacy of hasty generalization? Sure is. It seems de riguer, these days. > [@](#): > > And what of all the innocents we’ve captured and tortured? > Come on **Scylla** , this is absurd. What about them? Innocents **will** suffer in war. It should be minimized to whatever extent possible, but the blame for the fact that we must go to war and that innocents must suffer because of our actions lies at the feet of those who attacked us. > [@](#): > > Because we’re Americans, and that’s supposed to mean something. > We should not lower ourselves to the level of whatever scum we’re fighting. > Besides, torture is not effective and does, indeed, help unite our enemies against us. I dunno. What’s the difference between torture and strong interrogation. Where is the line drawn? It does indeed help our enemies when suitable interrogation is mischaracterized and reported as torture. > [@](#): > > No. > Nobody has compelled us to do anything. > We have chosen, of our own free will, to, in several ways, become the thing we said we were fighting. You think I’m crazy? How can you compare us this away and expect me to take you seriously? We’re not cutting people’s heads off. We don’t target civilians. > [@](#): > > Can we win hearts and minds by making those same hearts and mind fill up with hate for us? Why champion a pyrrhic victory? Who said anything about hearts and minds? We’re not waging a PR campaign. Those that dislike us will continue to do so. > [@](#): > > How could Israel have ‘won’ its war, other than genocide? Sure. > [@](#): > > “They make a desert and call it peace” Again, I don’t trust your arguments because you don’t begin from the same place as I do. You begin with the beleif that we are evil and doing wrong, have always done so, and continue to do so. “Why do you hate America” is a ridiculed argument, but in fact it’s a reduction to absurdity of a valid point. The left begins from, and proceeds from the premise that we’re the bad guy. We’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/83 "2005-11-12T12:47:44Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > Allow me to assure you that the sentiment is now entirely mutual. I never thought otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/84 "2005-11-12T13:19:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You used to be reasonable and funny. What happened to make you a Bush-lickin’ wanker, anyway? You know, I’ve read most of this thread, and I’ve come to the conclusion that, indeed **Scylla** is both. He has shown that he is capable of being humorous and, on occasion, capable of reasonable debate. He probably still is. But, he also lets his other, apparently more true side show, where he is a liberal-hating, apologist with flecks of foam around his rabid mouth, and who is incapable of actual debate. Just watch when he starts spouting about how then durn liberals run away from fights (compare Kerry v. Bush in Vietnam, asswipe), can’t protect our national security, want to sing kumbaya with Gitmo detainees, all the while overlooking the massive problems with this administration. The question is which one is the real **Scylla**. Ask him, and, true to his form, he’ll blame the liberals for pushing him so far that he has to explode with irrational vitriol and idiotic namecalling. Ask me? I think he’s a small minded, hyper masculine type A personality who can, on occassion, make a joke or a point. The question is whether or not it’s worth it to you, to sort through his bullshit to get to it. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/85 "2005-11-12T14:10:54Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You know, I’ve read most of this thread, and I’ve come to the conclusion that, indeed **Scylla** is both. He has shown that he is capable of being humorous and, on occasion, capable of reasonable debate. He probably still is. A cogent analysis, Watson. > [@](#): > > But, he also lets his other, apparently more true side show, where he is a liberal-hating, apologist with flecks of foam around his rabid mouth, and who is incapable of actual debate. When the moon is full, even an evangelical conservative who says his prayers by night can become a rabid-liberal hater. > [@](#): > > Just watch when he starts spouting about how then durn liberals run away from fights (compare Kerry v. Bush in Vietnam, asswipe), can’t protect our national security, want to sing kumbaya with Gitmo detainees, all the while overlooking the massive problems with this administration. The question is which one is the real **Scylla**. Ask him, and, true to his form, he’ll blame the liberals for pushing him so far that he has to explode with irrational vitriol and idiotic namecalling. Ask me? I think he’s a small minded, hyper masculine type A personality who can, on occassion, make a joke or a point. The question is whether or not it’s worth it to you, to sort through his bullshit to get to it. And **this** little piggy built his house out of straw. What a reasonable aside. Clearly, it is I, Scylla who am off the wall. Here we are in at least the 3,000 anti-bush, anti-conservative thread, in which you same bunch of wankers solemnly agree with the most hyperbolous half-wit tripe, whilst scowling down and tsk-tsking anybody who happens to come along and point out that the sky is not quite falling yet. How can you keep a straight face in a thread in which the OP solemnly assures us that Bush and Cheney have singlehandedly destroyed the United States, and two hundred years worth of freedoms? You’re simply full of shit, which, by itself, is ok. I’m full of shit, too. You guys seem to really actually beleive what you say, and that’s just scary stupid. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/86 "2005-11-12T14:37:50Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’ll tell you my exact honest opinion. > The left has lost sight of the fact that we are at war and are in this together. Hell no, we are not in this together. For on thing, if we were, the military would not be getting abused the way they are by the Bush administration. For another, the “with me or against me attitude” is a good way to say there is no “togethter”, only OBEY. > [@Scylla](#): > > They are playing a power game, and are more concerned about petty rights violations (Yes I said “petty” rights violations, and they are fucking petty compared to having our cities blown up) than they are about the fact that there is an entire fucking society out there trying to kill us. I was born and raised in NYC, and used to work right near the World Trade Center (40 Wall Street actually). I knew people who worked all over that area. So don’t wave those buildings in my face. > [@Scylla](#): > > THey lie constantly, they manufacture scandals, and they say what they say for political effect, not for their actual job, which is to guide the country I don’t trust them or their motivations and I find them to be misguided and morally reprehensible. Gee, that sounds just like Bush and his cronies. They would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the ass. They are compulsive liars. They repeat the same lies even when they are shown to be untrue. WMD, yellow cake, AlQueda-Iran connections. All lies still being told. Faked documents. Documents proving that the war was being planned regardless of evidence or events (Downing Street). Cooking of intel (CIA report, Army WMD search reports etc). So who’s the liars? > [@Scylla](#): > > As for cowardice. Yes I’m a coward. Al Quaeda is an enemy that frightens me. … They could take us down. So let’s sell our country up the river, just so the boogieman under the bed won’t get you. Justice, freedom, standing up for what is right? Forget that, just don’t let the monster in the closet get you? If you are willing to sell America so cheaply, then hell yess you are a coward. I’d rather go down fighting than sell out so easily to a gang of far right fearmongers. > [@Scylla](#): > > Bush would be a better president if he didn’t have half the fucking government working against him. The left should know this. Clinton would have been better if he wasn’t being fucked over. Well hell. Let’s just make him a fucking king then. We don’t need a Congress or Constitution, we have a king. We don’t need laws, Bush can rule by decree. > [@Scylla](#): > > Take gay rights. Doma came under Clinton. Kerry was anti-gay marriage. Apparently though there was some theory that he was secretly pro-gay marriage, but had to say he was anti for political reasons. > So, am I to understand that this support of gay marriage is founded on a secret stance underlying a dishonest one? Who ran his first campaign as the guy who would be everyone’s resident, actively courted the gay vote, and then sold out to the religious wingnuts? > [@Scylla](#): > > On the other side of the coin, I’ve renounced my Republicanism. I think Republicans suck. This is not my father’s Republican party. It is not my Republican party. Bush is conservative in the **one** meaning of the word I strongly disaprove of… socially. Social conservatives are evangelical ignorant hate-mongering scum that deserve to look into the mirror of radical fundamentalist Islam. > Fiscally, I think Bush may end up being disastrous unless we get very very lucky. I think the thinly veiled neocon dream of global supremacy is a true kick in the face to our legitimate role of global leadership… by example. That’s my take on them. They only care about themselves, and to hell with the country. Now you’re starting to get it. They prey on fear and hate, and foster it for personal gain. So why support them? Why buy into their bullsit? By your own words, you admit they are absolutely no good. > [@Scylla](#): > > The **one** thing I like about Bush is that he is unwavering. He has a fucking goal and it’s a good goal vis a vis terror. He doesn’t do giant 180 degree turns for political effect. He wants to win, and y’all are too stupid to realize that he’s not playing populist games. Win what? For who? It sure as fuck isn’t for us. Unwavering? Bush would not change one iota even if the entire country went up in flames. He lives in his own little fanasy world. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over, and expecting a different result. He’ll never change, he’ll never admit everything he ever touched in his whole life always went to shit, and even more inexcusable, he is nevr accountable for any of it. Fuck him with a rusty hatchet. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/87 "2005-11-12T16:30:27Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > A cogent analysis, Watson Elementary. > [@Scylla](#): > > When the moon is full, even an evangelical conservative who says his prayers by night can become a rabid-liberal hater. Or a half- moon. Or a quarter moon. Or a new moon. Or if there is any satellite at all in the night sky. > [@Scylla](#): > > What a reasonable aside. Clearly, it is I, Scylla who am off the wall. Yes, you do go off the wall, off the handle, and off the deep end. Not all the time, but often enough to make it a pain to have to slog through the crap to get to the point you were trying to make. > [@Scylla](#): > > Here we are in at least the 3,000 anti-bush, anti-conservative thread, in which you same bunch of wankers solemnly agree with the most hyperbolous half-wit tripe, whilst scowling down and tsk-tsking anybody who happens to come along and point out that the sky is not quite falling yet. Gosh, where in heavens could I have gotten the idea that you thrive on overreaction? But points for working in the oppressed nature of the poor conservatives on the board. I’ll give you a hint, when you lower yourself to the level of the screeching harpies on the left, you aren’t winning the debate. And when you lump in the vast majority of the board in with them, you aren’t winning any friends either. > [@Scylla](#): > > How can you keep a straight face in a thread in which the OP solemnly assures us that Bush and Cheney have singlehandedly destroyed the United States, and two hundred years worth of freedoms? By dealing with the underlying issues rather than joining in the cacophony of idiotic namecalling of those who dare to disagree. I know that is wayyyyyy to much to expect from you, but a guy can dream, can’t he. > [@Scylla](#): > > You’re simply full of shit, I see that reasoned debate is indeed your forte. > [@Scylla](#): > > I’m full of shit, too. See, it’s not impossible for people of different political ideologies to agree!! > [@scylla](#): > > You guys seem to really actually beleive what you say, and that’s just scary stupid. Yes, I actually believe you are a small minded, hyper masculine type A personality who can, on occassion, make a joke or a point. I also actually believe you, on occasions such as this thread, can give **Dio** and whoever the idiot OP person is, a run for their money in the idiotic demonization of those who have the audicity to disagree with you. If those beliefs scare you, maybe you should pay more attention to your own posts. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/88 "2005-11-12T17:16:26Z")
> [@FoxNews](#): > > Methodist Bishops Repent Iraq War ‘Complicity’ > Thursday, November 10, 2005 > WASHINGTON — Ninety-five bishops from President Bush’s church said Thursday they repent their “complicity” in the “unjust and immoral” invasion and occupation of Iraq. > “In the face of the United States administration’s rush toward military action based on misleading information, too many of us were silent,” said a statement of conscience signed by more than half of the 164 retired and active United Methodist bishops worldwide. … “The only solution seems to be to stay the course. But if you’re on the wrong course, you don’t stay the course,” Carder said. “At the heart of the Christian faith is the willingness to acknowledge mistakes.” > [@General Wesley Clark](#): > > During an interview on Fox News (of all places): > Well, I think he, ah, there’s a lot to answer for because the intelligence that was available was hyped. I was one of many people who had seen previous intelligence that said the best judgment of the intelligence community was there might be weapons of mass destruction, some materials were unaccounted for. But the talk about mushroom clouds that Secretary Cheney was certain they were going to get a nuclear device fairly soon and so forth; it was irresponsible, it was ungrounded in the facts and the Congress that voted on the resolution never had the chance to see all the dissenting opinions within the intelligence community so I think there’s a lot to be looked at here. I think strategically, though, we can see now, four years after 9/11, that going into Iraq in a way to fight the war on terror was a strategic blunder. … They never looked at whether the administration distorted the information that was available in its approach to the public and they specifically said they weren’t authorized to do that. That’s what has to be looked at by this \ Senate committee and they haven’t done so. > [@Washington Post](#): > > Washington Post Staff Writers > Saturday, November 12, 2005; Page A01 > > President Bush and his national security adviser have answered critics of the Iraq war in recent days with a two-pronged argument: that Congress saw the same intelligence the administration did before the war, and that independent commissions have determined that the administration did not misrepresent the intelligence. Neither assertion is wholly accurate. But Bush and his aides had access to much more voluminous intelligence information than did lawmakers, who were dependent on the administration to provide the material. And the commissions cited by officials, though concluding that the administration did not pressure intelligence analysts to change their conclusions, were not authorized to determine whether the administration exaggerated or distorted those conclusions. > National security adviser Stephen J. Hadley, briefing reporters Thursday, countered “the notion that somehow this administration manipulated the intelligence.” He said that “those people who have looked at that issue, some committees on the Hill in Congress, and also the Silberman-Robb Commission, have concluded it did not happen.” > But the only committee investigating the matter in Congress, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, has not yet done its inquiry into whether officials mischaracterized intelligence by omitting caveats and dissenting opinions. And Judge Laurence H. Silberman, chairman of Bush’s commission on weapons of mass destruction, said in releasing his report on March 31, 2005: “Our executive order did not direct us to deal with the use of intelligence by policymakers, and all of us were agreed that that was not part of our inquiry.” … In addition, there were doubts within the intelligence community not included in the NIE. And even the doubts expressed in the NIE could not be used publicly by members of Congress because the classified information had not been cleared for release. Are people coming back to their senses? I don’t think this is anything more than a blip, which will be spun out of existence, followed by pesonal attacks and appeals to blind stupid loyalty. It’s the cynic in me I guess. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/89 "2005-11-12T18:07:39Z")
RE: Our freedom is on it’s last legs (sic). I agree. Why, just the other day Jones started talking about punctuated equilibrium like a loon. I told him to hush but he wouldn’t listen. Faster than you can say “immaculate conception” the red shirts had him in handcuffs. Such a pity – I liked Jones a lot. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/90 "2005-11-12T21:22:48Z")
I posted enough cites here to choke a horse. Are they going to just be ignored? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/91 "2005-11-12T23:07:15Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I posted enough cites here to choke a horse. Are they going to just be ignored? Maybe they’re choking a different farm animal… ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/92 "2005-11-12T23:25:48Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I posted enough cites here to choke a horse. Are they going to just be ignored? As \*\*Scylla \*\* is the only one in favor of surrendering our rights, and he has apparently given up reasoned discourse in favor of spewing venom. I doubt your cites will be responded too. I don’t know if even \*\*Clothahump \*\* would defend the surrendering of our rights. **Jim** ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/93 "2005-11-13T00:03:28Z")
Well, hell. I was getting the feeling we were just wasting our time anyway… ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/94 "2005-11-13T02:02:08Z")
> [@lno](#): > > Our country is at war and our government has the obligation to protect the American people. There’s an enemy that lurks and plots and plans and wants to hurt America again. So you bet we’ll aggressively pursue them. > > Do you want to wait for a mushroom cloud over your city because the government’s hands are tied by bureaucratic red tape? After all, if you’ve done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. Are you asking if I would give my life for freedom? Yes I would. Next question. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/95 "2005-11-13T21:18:07Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Hell no, we are not in this together. Hells yes, we are. Same country, same society, no man is an island entire of itself and all that crap." > [@](#): > > I was born and raised in NYC, and used to work right near the World Trade Center (40 Wall Street actually). I knew people who worked all over that area. So don’t wave those buildings in my face. I was born in the Bronx and I was **in** the WTC for the garage bombing, so stick that up your ass. > [@](#): > > Gee, that sounds just like Bush and his cronies. They would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the ass. They are compulsive liars. They repeat the same lies even when they are shown to be untrue. WMD, yellow cake, AlQueda-Iran connections. All lies still being told. Faked documents. Documents proving that the war was being planned regardless of evidence or events (Downing Street). Cooking of intel (CIA report, Army WMD search reports etc). So who’s the liars? **You** are. Unless by faked documents you’re referring to Dan Rather’s. > [@](#): > > So let’s sell our country up the river, just so the boogieman under the bed won’t get you. Justice, freedom, standing up for what is right? Forget that, just don’t let the monster in the closet get you? If you are willing to sell America so cheaply, then hell yess you are a coward. I’d rather go down fighting than sell out so easily to a gang of far right fearmongers. This is precisely why I have no respect for you wingnuts. It’s why I find you despicable and sleazy. You consider the first bombing of the WTC, the second hijacking attacks that left thousands dead in a smoking pile of rubble, the Marine barrack attacks, the Cole, Bali, Spain, the London Subway, the ongoing terror attacks in Iraq, etc, etc, to the be the work of “boogieman under the bed?” I can’t beleive a human being could be so blindly stupid as to say outright that we just made that up, it never happened, and there is no Al Quaeda. One day, you will have a collision with reality. Or, perhaps not. How do I talk to somebody who insists on such stupidity? > [@](#): > > Well hell. Let’s just make him a fucking king then. We don’t need a Congress or Constitution, we have a king. We don’t need laws, Bush can rule by decree. And, people in this very thread have lamented that I don’t seem to be making reasonable and intelligent points much anymore. Well, I’m up against arguments too stupid to refute. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/96 "2005-11-13T21:39:13Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I posted enough cites here to choke a horse. Are they going to just be ignored? Easy, Glenn Close, easy. > [@](#): > > Well, hell. I was getting the feeling we were just wasting our time anyway… Your engaging in political debate on an internet message board. Don’t tell me you didn’t think you **weren’t** wasting your time. And, I’m sorry you’re so impatient. I do occasionally have better things to do than waste my time at this. Awwright, your first cite: 95 out of 164 retired Methodist Bishops signed some sort of thing blaming themselves for their complicity in silence to GWB’s invasion. So? I can post cites, too. You’re supposed to tell me what they mean. Personally, I don’t understand why retired 95 Methodist Bishops feel they need to apologize for the war in Iraq, or why the other 69 don’t and frankly, I don’t care. Your second one: Wes Clark’s opinion varies from the findings of the Bipartisan committee that examined the evidence leading up to the war and found those things did not occur. I find the Bipartisan committees report to be more researched and better founded then Wes’ off the cuff opinions. Third one: The Senate intelligence committee has the same access to intelligence as the Pres, as I understand these things. Senate in general has more limited access. That’s the reason why we have a Senate intelligence committee, as part of the checks and balances that make sure the administration isn’t feeding selective of false information to lawmakers. This is a salient point, that this article neglects. Because it leaves out material facts, I don’t find it to be particularly interesting or credible. Happy? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/97 "2005-11-13T22:01:58Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@SteveG1](#): > > > > Gee, that sounds just like Bush and his cronies. They would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the ass. They are compulsive liars. They repeat the same lies even when they are shown to be untrue. WMD, yellow cake, AlQueda-Iran connections. All lies still being told. Faked documents. Documents proving that the war was being planned regardless of evidence or events (Downing Street). Cooking of intel (CIA report, Army WMD search reports etc). So who’s the liars? > > > [@Scylla](#): > > > > **You** are. Unless by faked documents you’re referring to Dan Rather’s. Holy fuck, you almost killed me! I was eating a handful of skittles and sucked 'em down my gullet. Don’t do that again. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/98 "2005-11-14T01:05:10Z")
**Scylla** : you’ve gone round the bend. If such things occur? What about the dozens of people who’ve died under torture by our forces? What does it say that such things can happen over, and over, and over again, and nobody stops them? If that doesn’t point to systemic problem, I don’t know what does. Further, when I specifically say that, in some ways, we’re doing the same things our enemies do you twist that into fitting your absurd “Libruls are teh suxorz!” rant. Forgetting, it seems, that I am not a Liberal, nor a Democrat. As for the resolutions for the war, did the folks know about how the OSP was operating? Or that Bush knew certain documents were, indeed, fakes ( **Niger Yellow Cake** ), before he made claims that they were genuine. But I guess you’ll discount all of that, and question my patriotism to boot simply because I want us held to the highest possible standard. So, I suppose, I’ll simply conclude by saying: “America, FUCK YEAH! Coming again, to save the mother fucking day yeah!” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/99 "2005-11-14T01:22:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > **Scylla** : you’ve gone round the bend. It’s possible. > [@](#): > > What about the dozens of people who’ve died under torture by our forces? I’ll make you a deal: You give me proof of two dozen or more dead by torture by US forces in the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001, and I will never say a word defending this war again. If on the other hand, you fail to provide the proof to this very serious accusation that you have made, I will consider you a liar, who hates America and defames its soldiers simply for rhetorical value. Y’know, a traitor. Actually, I’ll just consider you another hyperbolous wingnut. > [@](#): > > As for the resolutions for the war, did the folks know about how the OSP was operating? Or that Bush knew certain documents were, indeed, fakes ( **Niger Yellow Cake** ), before he made claims that they were genuine. I’m sorry, we’ve done yellow cake to death for years. > [@](#): > > But I guess you’ll discount all of that, and question my patriotism to boot simply because I want us held to the highest possible standard. Two out of three is pretty good, but it’s only fair to hold you to the same standard. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/100 "2005-11-14T01:39:26Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > You give me proof of two dozen or more dead by torture by US forces in the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001, and I will never say a word defending this war again. Deal. [ > [@](#): > > The documents released today include 44 autopsies and death reports as well as a summary of autopsy reports of individuals apprehended in Iraq and Afghanistan. The documents show that detainees died during or after interrogations by Navy Seals, Military Intelligence and “OGA” (Other Governmental Agency) – a term, according to the ACLU, that is commonly used to refer to the CIA. > > According to the documents, 21 of the 44 deaths were homicides. Eight of the homicides appear to have resulted from abusive techniques used on detainees, in some instances, by the CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence personnel. The autopsy reports list deaths by “strangulation,” “asphyxiation” and “blunt force injuries.” An overwhelming majority of the so-called “natural deaths” were attributed to “Arteriosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease.” > > While newspapers have recently reported deaths of detainees in CIA custody, today’s documents show that the problem is pervasive, involving Navy Seals and Military Intelligence too. ]([U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq | American Civil Liberties Union](http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=19298&c=36)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=6)