# Our freedom is on it's last legs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856 "2005-11-07T02:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/141 "2005-11-15T02:27:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > **Scylla** , I am indeed going to continue to post in this thread (if it interests me), and I will indeed discuss these things with people. But I will not do so with you. Ok. Thanks for telling me. > [@](#): > > Instead of talking about differing standards of proof, or epistemology, or ontology, you called me a traitor and said I hate our soldiers. I doubt I will forgive you for that, ever. I am not being hyperbolic. Fair enough. FTR, neither was I. Saying our soldiers tortured dozens to death is a very serious charge, and you stated it as a fact when you did not know it to be so. I don’t know what to call it besides traitorous slander, so a slanderous traitor is how I feel comfortal characterizing you. These are not casual accusations you make. > [@](#): > > You simply do **not** toss off rhetoric like that. That’s what I was thinking about you. > [@](#): > > and I have no desire, at all, to discuss anything with you if those are the insults you’ll sling. It’s a two way street. If you make such casual accusations I see no reason to do anything but call a spade a spade. > [@](#): > > I love my country, and want what’s best for Her, and for you to turn that into one of the most vile slanders I have ever had applied to me goes beyond all bounds. As vile slanders go, it **pales** next to the insistence that our soldiers have tortured dozens to death when you do not know it to be a fact. So, Pot. Kettle. Black. Make your own bed, and lie in it. > [@](#): > > You can feel free to respond to my cites all you wish. If someone else takes up your side of the discussion, I’ll be happy to discuss it with them. No. Debate by proxy isn’t my cup of tea. > [@](#): > > Hope that clears things up. Sure does. Thanks for telling me, so I didn’t waste my time. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/142 "2005-11-15T02:32:19Z")
I rest my case. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/143 "2005-11-15T02:41:56Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I composed a very long and well thought out reply last night, Suuuuuuurrrrre you did. > [@](#): > > Scylla, I guess I forgot you don’t like Bush. I guess it’s because you so rabidly support everything he does, no matter how outrageous and anti\_American it is. Or maybe because you seem to be sucking his dick so damn hard. He needs a fluffer. Hey, it’s a job. > [@](#): > > You were in the basement or the carport or something at Ground Zero. Right? During the explosions? Right? But then if you hadn’t gotten married, you’d have been there or would still be there? You’d still be there on the 11th floor? Neat trick, to be on the 11th floor of buildings that don’t fucking exist anymore. I was there the **first** time Bin Laden tried to bring down a WTC tower, ten years before 9/11. The garage bombing. Remember that, oh native New Yorker? ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/144 "2005-11-15T02:45:37Z")
All we have is your word you were there. Got proof? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/145 "2005-11-15T02:55:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I am embarassed that I ever accorded you any respect, you mock my gift, my generosity was naive, I am a fool. No. Say it isn’t so! Things have gone too far that I have finally lost the respect of my one true steadfast friend, Elucidator. Alas Babylon. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/146 "2005-11-15T02:58:29Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > All we have is your word you were there. > > Got proof? Wow, I get that you don’t like Scylla, but isn’t that a little much. **Scylla** , I am willing to take your word you were there. I still don’t see why this is enough to justify everything the Bush/Cheney admin is doing. IMHO: If we surrender freedoms and resort to torture than America has lost. Jim ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/147 "2005-11-15T03:04:55Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Wow, I get that you don’t like Scylla, but isn’t that a little much. > > **Scylla** , I am willing to take your word you were there. I still don’t see why this is enough to justify everything the Bush/Cheney admin is doing. > IMHO: If we surrender freedoms and resort to torture than America has lost. > > Jim Excuse me? He’s calling people left and right in this thread liars and we should take his word? It takes one to know one you know. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/148 "2005-11-15T03:09:53Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Excuse me? > > He’s calling people left and right in this thread liars and we should take his word? > > It takes one to know one you know. Oh, Ok. I guess I just assumed there is no good reason to make a claim like that. I would still like to understand how he can be this extreme. It just doesn’t add up. I like things to add up. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/149 "2005-11-15T03:11:52Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > **Scylla** , I am willing to take your word you were there. I still don’t see why this is enough to justify everything the Bush/Cheney admin is doing. It doesn’t. Steveg1 made a big deal about how he was in the area for 9/11 as if that gave his argument special athority. I bring it up in rebuttal to say, big deal. > [@](#): > > IMHO: If we surrender freedoms and resort to torture than America has lost. > > Jim “Torture” gets thrown around a lot, but it’s an undefined term. What steps are reasonable and proper while interrogating a prisoner, and where does reasonable interrogation cross a line and become torture? Where do you draw the line? It would make a good thread of its own, ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/150 "2005-11-15T03:18:26Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …snip… “Torture” gets thrown around a lot, but it’s an undefined term. What steps are reasonable and proper while interrogating a prisoner, and where does reasonable interrogation cross a line and become torture? > > Where do you draw the line? > > It would make a good thread of its own, I will make it this simple. Let McCain review our interrogation techniques I will better trust his judgment than my own or yours on this issue. Call it deep and insightful information. I find it very disturbing the very fact that Cheney is even interested in maintaining the possibility of torture in our arsenal of weapons against terror. It lowers the entire country. I asks now more specifically how can you support his request? Jim ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/151 "2005-11-15T03:18:31Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > . > I would still like to understand how he can be this extreme. It just doesn’t add up. I like things to add up. > Jim What have I said that you find extreme? I’m simply taking issue with extremity. “Freedom is on it’s last legs,” “What about the dozens our forces torture and kill” “A seven day intelligence restriction in 2001 is proof that the house and senate weren’t getting intelligence information years later.” Stupid stuff like this deserves a strong response, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/152 "2005-11-15T03:19:37Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > “Torture” gets thrown around a lot, but it’s an undefined term. What steps are reasonable and proper while interrogating a prisoner, and where does reasonable interrogation cross a line and become torture? > > Where do you draw the line? As discussed in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343413), and specified in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6770092), and as specified in Sen. McCain’s proposed legislation, the Army Field Manual 34-52, Intelligence Interrogation seems to do a pretty good job of drawing the line. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/153 "2005-11-15T03:20:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > What have I said that you find extreme? I’m simply taking issue with extremity. “Freedom is on it’s last legs,” “What about the dozens our forces torture and kill” “A seven day intelligence restriction in 2001 is proof that the house and senate weren’t getting intelligence information years later.” > > Stupid stuff like this deserves a strong response, IMHO. You have at least given the appearance of defending torture but please see my last post. Jim ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/154 "2005-11-15T03:27:17Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > You have at least given the appearance of defending torture but please see my last post. > > Jim Your doctor can help you get a spine you know. You do know what reasoning with an idiot means don’t you? It means you reasoned with an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/155 "2005-11-15T03:28:23Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I will make it this simple. Let McCain review our interrogation techniques I will better trust his judgment than my own or yours on this issue. Call it deep and insightful information. No doubt. I don’t think it’s a decision that should be made by one man regardless though. Then there’s the fact that the mother of a boy killed by a drunk driver doesn’t necessarily make good law. > [@](#): > > I find it very disturbing the very fact that Cheney is even interested in maintaining the possibility of torture in our arsenal of weapons against terror. It lowers the entire country. > I asks now more specifically how can you support his request? > > Jim I don’t. I haven’t. I don’t know specifically what he’s asking for. I somehow doubt that he’s asking to be allowed to “torture.” I’ll google the issue and see what he’s asking for and let you know what I think of it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/156 "2005-11-15T03:34:21Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > It doesn’t. Steveg1 made a big deal about how he was in the area for 9/11 as if that gave his argument special athority. I bring it up in rebuttal to say, big deal. Where did you get that? No where did I claim to be there on THAT day. My relatives were, I wasn’t. I did say I worked in the area at 40 Wall Street. Near the Treasury Building. Don’t make things up. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/157 "2005-11-15T03:36:38Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No doubt. I don’t think it’s a decision that should be made by one man regardless though. Then there’s the fact that the mother of a boy killed by a drunk driver doesn’t necessarily make good law. > > I don’t. I haven’t. I don’t know specifically what he’s asking for. I somehow doubt that he’s asking to be allowed to “torture.” > > I’ll google the issue and see what he’s asking for and let you know what I think of it. That is fair, even your point about McCain, but as I don’t believe torture is the tool of an honorable government, I would still be willing to allow him to be the arbiter. I think maybe what Cheney asked for will shock you. It was the last straw for me and I thought I was already there with him. Even Bush seems to want to distance himself from this one. Jim ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/158 "2005-11-15T03:36:45Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No doubt. I don’t think it’s a decision that should be made by one man regardless though. Then there’s the fact that the mother of a boy killed by a drunk driver doesn’t necessarily make good law. > > I don’t. I haven’t. I don’t know specifically what he’s asking for. I somehow doubt that he’s asking to be allowed to “torture.” > > I’ll google the issue and see what he’s asking for and let you know what I think of it. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON – Vice President Dick Cheney made an unusual personal appeal to Republican senators this week to allow CIA exemptions to a proposed ban on the torture of terror suspects in U.S. custody, according to participants in a closed-door session. > **[The San Diego Union-Tribune - San Diego, California & National News](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/)** Satisfied? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/159 "2005-11-15T03:45:58Z")
A lot more newsstories from almost every sort of news agency. > **[Google News](https://news.google.com/search?hl=en-US&q=cheney%2Btorture&gl=US&ceid=US:en)** > > Comprehensive up-to-date news coverage, aggregated from sources all over the world by Google News. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856/160 "2005-11-15T03:48:23Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > IN the past, you and I have had meaningful discussions in pit threads, but it’s usually very distracting what with all the mudslinging and vituperative name-calling. STOP… > [@Scylla](#): > > In **this** thread, I am combatting left wingnuts who make completely unreasonable assertions, and am doing so in terms that I feel are appropriate. I can hardly have an enlightened discussion with you simultaneously. IRONY > [@Scylla](#): > > I have no such expectation. I simply expect a loyal opposition, and I see no reason why it can’t be done effectively without resorting to moronic hyperbole and made up accusations. KILLING > [@Scylla](#): > > Surely, there are enough actual problems to discuss and they serious enough that there is no need to engage in mindless hyperbole. ME [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-freedom-is-on-its-last-legs/329856.md?page=9)