# Our government is planning to use nukes? You have to be \*&@#$ kidding me! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2006, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937 "2006-04-09T08:12:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/101 "2006-04-10T16:20:42Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > \*\*Lastly, if the insane bastards that are in power at the moment actually do nuke Iran in a first strike, you might as well kiss your ass goodbye…at least kiis goodbye any chance of ever living the life you are now able to lead, even under the idiotic bastards in Washington. but but but… wouldn’t my “I didn’t vote for him” bumper sticker mean anything? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/102 "2006-04-10T16:22:13Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > What odds are you giving? What do you want? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/103 "2006-04-10T16:23:07Z")
> [@wring](#): > > but but but… wouldn’t my “I didn’t vote for him” bumper sticker mean anything? It should get you a $5 discount of off a gallon of gas. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/104 "2006-04-10T16:41:00Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > You people out there in your reality-based world, with all your fancy ‘facts’ and ‘lessons learned’ from past ‘mistakes’ just refuse to get with the program don’t you. When they stop “bogarting” the cool drugs, I’ll get with the program! > [@Xploder](#): > > …nuclear cannon…nuclear mortar… [ > [@](#): > > The Atomic Cannon, at 280 mm, was the largest nuclear capable mobile artillery piece manufactured by the United States. On May 25, 1953, a 280 mm cannon fired an atomic projectile a distance of 7 miles at the Nevada Test Site. Twenty 280 mm cannons were manufactured. None were used in battle. ]([Converged Infrastructure (CI) | Dell Technologies US](http://www.vce.com/grable.html))[Nuclear mortar](http://www.guntruck.com/DavyCrockett.html) [the Davy Crockett.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_%28nuclear_device%29) and a [nuclear land mine](http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/madm.htm) :eek: CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/105 "2006-04-10T16:57:07Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > When they stop “bogarting” the cool drugs, I’ll get with the program ![[url=http://www.guntruck.com/DavyCrockett.html]Nuclear mortar](http://www.vce.com/grable.html) [the Davy Crockett.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_%28nuclear_device%29) and a [nuclear land mine](http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/madm.htm) :eek: > > CMC fnord! I had forgotten about the landmine but it doesn’t surprise me. The Mutt that the mortar was eventually used on was a neat vehicle though. Then again, I could talk all day about what I consider neat military vehicles that I wish I owned…cough…gamma-goat, DUKW…a friend of mine that I was in the Army with bought a deuce and a half at an auction for less than $1000 and restored it to like new condition. Son of a bitch will burn ANY type of fuel, even mixed together. Bastard. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/106 "2006-04-10T17:08:46Z")
I thought I remembered the BIG problem with the Davy Crockett, go about halfway down the [page](http://www.guntruck.com/DavyCrockett.html), you couldn’t fire the damn thing and not be in the effect range of the warhead! We had to kill the troops in order to save them. :smack: CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/107 "2006-04-10T17:29:14Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Comment? > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > … > > OK, here’s the bet: > > > > If US military forces attack government-controlled or civilian targets within the internationally recognized borders of Iran, without the permission of the internationally-recognized government of Iran, between 27 January 2005 and 20 January 2009, the INVASION BET wins. If this does not happen, the NO INVASION BET wins on 20 January 2005 and is payable then. > > > > The burden of proof is on the INVASION BET side: that is, there must be credible evidence of the action, reports in major US media. No claim that black-ops special forces blew up a bridge in Tehran and disappeared into the night before anyone could prove they were there. > > > > I will take the NO INVASION BET for $200, even money. If you want me to cover any part of that with you, speak up. Um, **Sevastopol** , where’s this from? I’ve done ‘Edit-Find in this page’ on the first two pages of this thread for ‘Bricker’ and ‘bet’ and found no posts by **Bricker** , and no bets prior to your post except **John Mace** ’s. Is it from some other thread? If **Bricker** ’s really offering this bet, I’m in for part of the action. And I would be relieved and delighted to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/108 "2006-04-10T17:41:34Z")
Y’know, given my history of losing wagers, I think I would take Bricker up on part of this bet. Either it would buy me peace of mind (no matter how much fate may want a nuclear holocaust, it does not want me to win a bet) or- hey, cash! The only problem, of course, is that any US military intervention is likely to be along the lines of covert operations to destroy facilities and kill or kidnap major Iranian scientists/politicians- y’know, the things that America calls “terrorism” when they’re done to it or its allies. Things like the supporting the Contras or attempting to kill Castro (albeit, in both those cases there was more training than intervention by American personnel). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/109 "2006-04-10T17:42:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If **Bricker** ’s really offering this bet, I’m in for part of the action. And I would be relieved and delighted to lose. Heck, I’ll take some action on Iran. I’m with Bricker, with one amendment: no military action by the end of the year. (I don’t like these bets that don’t pay off for another three years, I tend to forget about them.) You can suggest stakes, if you like. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/110 "2006-04-10T18:15:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Heck, I’ll take some action on Iran. I’m with Bricker, with one amendment: no military action by the end of the year. (I don’t like these bets that don’t pay off for another three years, I tend to forget about them.) > > You can suggest stakes, if you like. I wouldn’t taket that bet. First, I assume he means 2009, not 2005 at the end of the first paragraph. But I can see a scenario where we might make a tactical strike against Iran sometime before 2009. A lot can happen between now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/111 "2006-04-10T18:17:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I could go on, but the insane idea proposed by folks like **Quartz** that nuclear weapons are conceptually inflated to be somethinig more than they are is just not true. Nukes are way, waaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than conventionial weapons, and that is why they are regarded differently. Really? You’ve read about the [Grand Slam bomb](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_bomb), haven’t you? And the [gate guard story?](http://www.gunnies.pac.com.au/gallery/grand_slam.htm) Well Scampton to Lincoln is about [8 km](http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=494500&y=379500&z=5&sv=494500,379500&st=4&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&ax=494500&ay=379500). And the detonation of the bomb would have destroyed Lincoln cathedral, so we can say that the blast radius is at least 8 km. Modern Hiroshima has an area of 900 sq. km; assuming the same size today, so the blast radius was something over 17 km - only double the radius for what, 2000x the potency. So the idea is in no way insane. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/112 "2006-04-10T18:27:05Z")
> [@Neidhart](#): > > . . . which, of course, worked **so well** in Britain and North Vietnam and 1991 Iraq. > > Seriously, has this EVER worked ANYWHERE? Ever? Well, last I heard that Chinese embassy in Belgrade hasn’t given us any guff lately. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/113 "2006-04-10T18:29:02Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I thought I remembered the BIG problem with the Davy Crockett, go about halfway down the [page](http://www.guntruck.com/DavyCrockett.html), you couldn’t fire the damn thing and not be in the effect range of the warhead! > > We had to kill the troops in order to save them. :smack: > > CMC fnord! Sorry, you must have misread…from the page: > [@](#): > > Maximum range of the M28 ‘Light’ Launcher was 1.24 miles, and the M29 ‘Heavy’ Launcher’s maximum range was 2.5 miles. I think you were referring to the blast and radiation effects chart which only indicated what would be the effect on the crew if fired to close to them. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/114 "2006-04-10T18:43:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? You’ve read about the [Grand Slam bomb](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_bomb), haven’t you? And the [gate guard story?](http://www.gunnies.pac.com.au/gallery/grand_slam.htm) Well Scampton to Lincoln is about [8 km](http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=494500&y=379500&z=5&sv=494500,379500&st=4&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&ax=494500&ay=379500). And the detonation of the bomb would have destroyed Lincoln cathedral, so we can say that the blast radius is at least 8 km. Modern Hiroshima has an area of 900 sq. km; assuming the same size today, so the blast radius was something over 17 km - only double the radius for what, 2000x the potency. So the idea is in no way insane. The square root of 900 is 30 - 30kmx30km. Further, the gate guard story talked about a hypothetical explosion. Real Grand Slam bombs were used in WWII - in your Wikipedia cite, it says one did this: > [@wikipedia](#): > > The Grand Slam was first used on March 14, 1945 when the Royal Air Force No. 617 “Dambusters” Squadron, lead by Squadron Leader C.C. Calder, attacked the Bielefeld railway viaduct, killing over fifty civilians and destroying two spans of the viaduct. I’ve never heard of the grand slam before your posts, so I’mjust dealing with the info you’ve provided, but it sounds to me like the Grand Slam was nowhere close in power to the Hiroshima bomb. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/115 "2006-04-10T18:44:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And the detonation of the bomb would have destroyed Lincoln cathedral, so we can say that the blast radius is at least 8 km. According to your cite, and unattributed at that. I find it rather difficult to believe that even such a massive conventional bomb would “flatten” 201 square kilometres. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/116 "2006-04-10T18:48:31Z")
Scratch the _first_ part of my post - blast-_radius_ :smack: . However, twice the blast radius is four times the blast area, even if the bomb that never exploded really would have done all that. ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/117 "2006-04-10T18:49:40Z")
From [here.](http://www.brainshrub.com/canadian-comment-invade-iran) > [@](#): > > Speaking as a Canadian who is fond of judicious language, I feel that this situation deserves careful and measured thought. So let me just open with: > > Is your entire f\*cking country on crack??? > [@](#): > > Iran’s nuclear facilities are distributed across the country and in hardened sites near population centers. So any strike that cripples a significant portion of Iran’s nuclear capacity will inevitably be so large and kill so many people that its going to be tantamount to inviting full scale war. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, the Strait of Hormuz is so narrow that sinking one supertanker will block it indefinitely, and Iran borders the strait on three sides. Block Hormuz and any naval groups inside the Persian Gulf are trapped there. Any naval groups outside the Persian Gulf are trapped outside. Forget about any oil coming out of the Persian Gulf from Iraq, Kuwait, Quatar, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia or the UAE. Think about what that does to the price of oil, and to the world economy. Everything this administration touches turns to shit – unless you’re rich, in which case you get more rich. It’s our religious fundamentalists against their religious fundamentalists. They’re both batshit crazy – but our nuts have nukes. I weep for the future. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/118 "2006-04-10T18:52:07Z")
Taking out two spans of a bridge is a trifle smaller than an 8 km blast radius. A bit more research and I’ve turned up [this](http://www.slate.com/id/2080106/) from [Slate.com](http://Slate.com): > [@](#): > > During World War II, Britain’s Royal Air Force built a 22,000-pound bomb called the Grand Slam, which Lancaster bombers dropped on Nazi U-boat pens. The U.S. Army Air Force built a 44,000-pound bomb, called the T-12 Cloudmaker, though the war ended before it was used. (Again, by comparison, the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima released the explosive energy of 13,000 tons, or 26,000,000 pounds.) Whereas the MOAB, which according to CNN is 21,000 lbs, does [this](http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/03/11/sprj.irq.moab/). Nasty, but nothing like a nuke. So yes, your confidence in the teensiness of nukes does smack of insanity, or perhaps lack of knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/119 "2006-04-10T18:56:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And the detonation of the bomb would have destroyed Lincoln cathedral, so we can say that the blast radius is at least 8 km. Color me a wee bit skeptical that a 10 ton conventional bomb would knock down a cathedral more than 5 miles away. I think “facts” like that are generally known in the cute story business as an embellishment, or, in plain language, bullshit that makes a story more interesting. Or it could be that the cathedral in Lincoln is so poorly built that the locals dare not sneeze near it for fear of collapse. That is a possibility that cannot yet be ruled out. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/120 "2006-04-10T19:00:09Z")
> [@Danalan's cite](#): > > Meanwhile, the Strait of Hormuz is so narrow that sinking one supertanker will block it indefinitely [The strait at its narrowest is 21 miles wide [1], having two 1 mile wide channels for marine traffic separated by a 2 mile wide buffer zone [/quote] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock\_Nevis]The world’s largest ship, _Knock Nevis_](Meanwhile, the Strait of Hormuz is so narrow that sinking one supertanker will block it indefinitely), is only 1504 feet long - less than a quarter of the width of even 1 marked channel. Iran could block the Strait if it wanted to, but only with active naval and air methods, not passively, and not for long. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937.md?page=7)