# Our government is planning to use nukes? You have to be \*&@#$ kidding me! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2006, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937 "2006-04-09T08:12:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/141 "2006-04-11T01:42:17Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Eh, they wouldn’t do it. Boycotting the US would be economic suicide and they know it. if enough people do this over a long enough time, the message might get through, IMO. Why not boycott a country whose jingoism is distasteful to you? America’s might will not last forever, no empire does. . People often feel helpless to foment change–not buying goods or refusing to visit are excellent ways to demonstrate displeasure with the “product”. I won’t be vacationing in South Dakota because of their insane recent legislation, for example. It may seem silly to some, but it is all I can do to protest the state of affairs. That and make sure that IL stays blue, that is. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/142 "2006-04-11T02:47:12Z")
> [@Danalan](#): > > The mere possession of nukes is inherently a military tactic. That’s why “we” don’t want anyone else to have them. They’re a great equalizer. don’t know what point you were trying to make. the sequence I was commenting on was; POSTER A: USA hasn’t used nukes since WWII Poster B: listed cites of USA testing nukes by exploding same. I was pointing out that there is an appreciable difference between testing the damn things and intentionally dropping them on habited areas. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/143 "2006-04-11T04:18:56Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > What odds are you giving? John Mace: same query. You went 10,000:1 against Rove being convicted of treason. Do you have the same confidence level here? Proposed parameters: ANY United States or NATO-allied nuke of any configuration (bunker buster, tactical, whatever) exploding on Iranian soil before Jan 20, 2009. Delivery, intent, and current political climate not important. Big bada-boom, you lose. I hadn’t seen your previous posts on the topic, but I’d expect at least 1000:1 odds given your apparent confidence. Bet? Disclaimer: I’m not sure I’d take the bet. “winning” would be horrific. But I do want to know how dismissive John really is. And if he’s in the 1k:1 range or better , I’ll take the bet @ $10 and donate the proceeds to nuke relief with great regret. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/144 "2006-04-11T05:26:50Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The color of their skin has nothing to do with it. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > This is America, and these are Republicans; I guarantee race is a factor. I must respectfully disagree – for the modern-day GOP, it’s all about the Benjamins. If Iran was rolling in money and open to throwing shovelfuls of it into the coffers of the Administration and its cronies, GWB would gladly give Mahmoud Ahmadinejad major lip-lock action (but no tongue!) on prime-time teevee without a second thought. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/145 "2006-04-11T07:14:22Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Sorry, I misrepresented you. You’re not diminishing nukes - it’s your exaggeration of the enormity of conventional explosives that I disagree with, in the context of nukes.Hiroshima, a very small A-bomb, was more than a thousand times more powerful than a Grand Slam. Ah, we’re talking at cross-purposes. The power _at the point of detonation_ is one thing, the _area affected_ is quite another. It’s clear that an inverse-square or inverse-cube law applies. But dead is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/146 "2006-04-11T11:11:52Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > [Amazing what one click with Google will do for you.](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2835.htm) > > -Joe HAHAHA…I never saw that! Thanks for fighting my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/147 "2006-04-11T12:19:03Z")
[Iran-Syria Operations Group](http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=13282) Go **SimonX**! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/148 "2006-04-11T16:37:54Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Iran-Syria Operations Group](http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=13282) Ah, the spirit of the White House Iraq Group and the Office of Special Plans lives on! ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/149 "2006-04-11T17:27:04Z")
I’m a military officer. I’m currently outprocessing and will be off active duty very, very shortly. However, if I were recalled to active duty after a first attack nuclear strike, I have to say I would seriously consider refusing to report (I can’t legally resign for another 3 years). I would file as a CO, depending on the context of our attack. Who knows what circumstances we would use these, but unprovoked, would seriously piss me off. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/150 "2006-04-11T20:48:12Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Ah, we’re talking at cross-purposes. The power _at the point of detonation_ is one thing, the _area affected_ is quite another. It’s clear that an inverse-square or inverse-cube law applies. But dead is dead. Dead is dead if I let off a big firecracker while holding it in my mouth. Yet re-reading your posts, this isn’t what you initially claimed. You claimed, via an unsupported cite, that a single, conventional 22,000 lb bomb exploding at Scampton would flatten Lincoln Cathedral - which means a _significant_ blast radius of 8km, which in turn means an area of near-total devastation of 210 km[sup]2[/sup]. Could you at least admit that you were talking bollocks in that respect? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/151 "2006-04-11T21:06:19Z")
A deconstruction of the Hersch story here: > **[Are we really going to nuke Iran?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2006/04/are-we-really-going-to-nuke-iran.html)** > > What are we to make of Seymour Hersh's bombshell, in this week's New Yorker, that not only is President George W. Bush keen to attack Iran's nuclear... Thing people should ask themselves, why was this story leaked? Heroic “high level administration officials” horrified by Bush’s nuclear brinksmanship? Highly doubtful. Or something else? Who was the leak targeted at? Iran? Europe? The US public? Somebody on the other side of bureacratic turf battle? You can’t take the pronouncements of anonymous leakers at face value, because these guys have an agenda, and it isn’t always the same agenda as the other senior administration officials. You’ve got to take seriously the idea that Cheney and Rove or somebody else wanted this story on the front page for some reason. Doesn’t mean it was a smart reason, just that I doubt Cheney is sitting in his office licking his wounds and snarling, “Curses! Our secret plan to nuke Iran is revealed! Now we’ll never be able to bamboozle the American citizenry into supporting it!” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/152 "2006-04-11T21:50:12Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > A deconstruction of the Hersch story here: > > [Are we really going to nuke Iran?](http://www.slate.com/id/2139610/) > > Thing people should ask themselves, why was this story leaked? Heroic “high level administration officials” horrified by Bush’s nuclear brinksmanship? Highly doubtful. > > Or something else? Who was the leak targeted at? Iran? Europe? The US public? Somebody on the other side of bureacratic turf battle? > > You can’t take the pronouncements of anonymous leakers at face value, because these guys have an agenda, and it isn’t always the same agenda as the other senior administration officials. You’ve got to take seriously the idea that Cheney and Rove or somebody else wanted this story on the front page for some reason. Doesn’t mean it was a smart reason, just that I doubt Cheney is sitting in his office licking his wounds and snarling, “Curses! Our secret plan to nuke Iran is revealed! Now we’ll never be able to bamboozle the American citizenry into supporting it!” I’ve got a hunch that Hersh has been around the block enough times to consider these possibilities. And unlike Woodward, he hasn’t become The Scribe of the Powerful; his sources don’t usually tend to be people that a Rove or Cheney would even know, let alone use as a vehicle for a leak. A decent reporter knows that sources _always_ have their own agendas. I agree that there are a lot of not-so-decent (read: damned clueless) reporters out there, hence headlines like the WaPo’s [DeLay Parting on Own Terms](http://radio-free-donia.blogspot.com/2006/04/washington-posts-parting-gift-to-delay.html): _Congressman Wanted to Win GOP Primary Before Announcing Resignation_. But Hersh, as reporters go, is a hell of a lot better than average. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/153 "2006-04-11T22:38:30Z")
Yes, but Hersh has his own agenda, since it’s no secret he despises Bush (not that there’s anything wrong with that!). I’m sure he’d be a little more likely to believe someone who had a story that seemed to make the Bush administration look like idiots. Because I don’t believe for a second that Bush et al are really really planning a nuclear first strike on Iranian nuclear development facilities. Maybe somebody asked for some contingency plans or worst-case scenarios. But even if somebody in the Bush administration was pushing the nuke bunker-buster plan, I believe you’d have to fire half the generals in the Pentagon before you’d find one who’d carry out the order for a nuclear first strike against Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/154 "2006-04-11T23:28:07Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Could you at least admit that you were talking bollocks in that respect? No. I see no reason to admit error when there is no error. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/155 "2006-04-11T23:30:35Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But even if somebody in the Bush administration was pushing the nuke bunker-buster plan, I believe you’d have to fire half the generals in the Pentagon before you’d find one who’d carry out the order for a nuclear first strike against Iran. More to the point, they wouldn’t let it leak beforehand: they’d just go do it. By talking about it beforehand, they paint themselves into a corner. And lose. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/156 "2006-04-11T23:31:02Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I believe you’d have to fire half the generals in the Pentagon before you’d find one who’d carry out the order for a nuclear first strike against Iran. Wouldn’t it be easier to just [promote](http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1664722.php) general [Boykin](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm)? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/157 "2006-04-11T23:41:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Thing people should ask themselves, why was this story leaked? Heroic “high level administration officials” horrified by Bush’s nuclear brinksmanship? Highly doubtful. Why ? Surely not _all_ high officials are homicidal maniacs. > [@Lemur866](#): > > Doesn’t mean it was a smart reason, just that I doubt Cheney is sitting in his office licking his wounds and snarling, “Curses! Our secret plan to nuke Iran is revealed! Now we’ll never be able to bamboozle the American citizenry into supporting it!” Closely followed by “Oh, well, let’s do it anyway !” > [@Lemur866](#): > > Because I don’t believe for a second that Bush et al are really really planning a nuclear first strike on Iranian nuclear development facilities. Why not ? These people are utter fools, not to mention evil; I don’t think there’s _anything_ they wouldn’t do. > [@Lemur866](#): > > . But even if somebody in the Bush administration was pushing the nuke bunker-buster plan, I believe you’d have to fire half the generals in the Pentagon before you’d find one who’d carry out the order for a nuclear first strike against Iran. Why ? How often does a military ( _any_ military ) run out of people willing to follow stupid orders ? We’ve already conquered one country for no sane reason, why not nuke another ? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/158 "2006-04-11T23:49:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No. I see no reason to admit error when there is no error. Well, that’s the heart and soul of your error. You just don’t seem to realize how rediculously laughable your allegation is that a mere ten tons of explosive would destroy a church 5 miles away. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/159 "2006-04-12T16:51:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yes, but Hersh has his own agenda, since it’s no secret he despises Bush (not that there’s anything wrong with that!). > > I’m sure he’d be a little more likely to believe someone who had a story that seemed to make the Bush administration look like idiots. And I’m sure you can produce an example of a story Hersh wrote where his willingness to believe the worst about Bush & Co. caused him to get the story wrong. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937/160 "2006-04-12T19:02:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No. I see no reason to admit error when there is no error. **Quartz** , forgive me for pursuing this, but you _have_ erred. You said precisely this: > [@Quartz](#): > > Really? You’ve read about the Grand Slam bomb, haven’t you? And the gate guard story? Well Scampton to Lincoln is about 8 km. And the detonation of the bomb would have destroyed Lincoln cathedral, **so we can say that the blast radius is at least 8 km**. Modern Hiroshima has an area of 900 sq. km; assuming the same size today, so the blast radius was something over 17 km - only double the radius for what, 2000x the potency. So the idea is in no way insane. My emphasis: no we can’t. You claimed that a 22,000 lb bomb could have a blast radius of 8 km. Which by simple application of πr[sup]2[/sup], means that bomb would wipe out 210km[sup]2[/sup]. Your cite is bollocks, and your claim is bollocks. Admit your error. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-government-is-planning-to-use-nukes-you-have-to-be-kidding-me/351937.md?page=9)