# Our Ignorance is no Accident **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2008, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332 "2008-12-02T12:55:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/21 "2008-12-02T16:56:16Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > Our present economic system of acquisition with little or no regard for the rest of society is not our naturally evolved culture. This is a totally artificial system that we have been raised to recognize as a natural phenomenon. Sounds like someone woke up late last Friday and didnt get the $25 microwave he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/22 "2008-12-02T16:57:58Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > This society posesses perhaps the largest number of sources of information, and the deepest archives of information, with little or no restriction to its access, in human history; and yet somehow people are actively being kept from this information? How’s that work, exactly? But what is missing, in many people, is an intellectual curiosity and desire to find and utilize that information. I wouldn’t say it’s a conspiracy, but it is certainly regrettable, and curious that the powers that be have allowed the situation to become so dire. I think it’s also unfair to mention the access to information without mentioning the lack of access to formal training. I can look up damn near any fact I want, but without the proper foundation, perspective, training, and certification, it is ofdramatically less use to me in my everyday life. I can read every book they assign in law school or med school, but I can’t practice law or medicine. To do that, I have to spend several thousand dollars, and spend several years in a classroom. Information, and access to it, it not as useful if you can’t use it directly to improve your life, or understand the world better. Most of the information people receive is basically trivia. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/23 "2008-12-02T17:01:09Z")
It’s probably about a dollar per watt. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/24 "2008-12-02T17:02:38Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > They are not taught to be good self-learners and their educational institutions wish them to be uncritical thinkers and easily manipulated. Those who determine public policy want good producers and consumers. Oh, well, why didn’t you just say so? No big news, every George Carlin fan knows **that!** ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/25 "2008-12-02T17:09:11Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > A dictionary is a good investment. Ignorance is the state of being ignorant. Ignorant is lacking knowledge. I think he means what knowledge are people lacking that makes them “ignorant”? Or did you just read The Great Transformation, decided that Christian Socialism is the way to go any everyone else is ignorant for not following it? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/26 "2008-12-02T17:33:03Z")
Well…I think I’ll take modern society over primitive society any day. I mean, it was all well and good for the best hunters to give up the choicest cuts of meat to The People and take only the scraps for themselves (total bullshit IMHO, but it’s a nice fantasy), but most likely those mighty hunters would be lucky to live to their 30’s…as would the rest of their society. To me, this is sort of like the quandary of an illiterate society not having eye sight problems. Thanks, but I think I’ll take literacy and civilization over having good eye sight…and probably dieing fairly miserably at a young age. While I agree that children today aren’t taught critical thinking the way I would prefer, I don’t think it has anything to do with Capitalism or some conspiracy…it has more to do with our society and what is feels is important. We have access to information and resources that the ancient ELITE couldn’t even have dreamed of…it’s just a matter of using those resources. Our school system doesn’t emphasize this kind of learning however…not because they are trying to control us or due to some dark sooper sekrit conspiracy, but because our public education system plays to the lowest common denominator, and uses standardized tests as their metric for supposed progress…and since their funding is based on those standardized tests, THAT is what is emphasized in our school system…learning to take those tests and do well enough to keep the gravy train running. -XT ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/27 "2008-12-02T17:50:26Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > They are not taught to be good self-learners and their educational institutions wish them to be uncritical thinkers and easily manipulated. Those who determine public policy want good producers and consumers. I disagree. So far as I know, educational institutions mostly want their students to pass their courses with the highest possible grades, as that way it makes them eligible for more resources. That’s not the same thing at all. As for those who determine public policy, IMO what they are more likely to want is that people think the policies they set have been essential to their well-being, whethere true or not, as that way they are more likely to keep their rather cushy jobs. I think maybe YOU want me to be an uncritical thinker and easily manipulated. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/28 "2008-12-02T17:54:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > But what is missing, in many people, is an intellectual curiosity and desire to find and utilize that information. I wouldn’t say it’s a conspiracy, but it is certainly regrettable, and curious that the powers that be have allowed the situation to become so dire. I have this image of a horse…and water. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/29 "2008-12-02T18:47:22Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > They are not taught to be good self-learners and their educational institutions wish them to be uncritical thinkers and easily manipulated. Those who determine public policy want good producers and consumers. Wolverines are small, vicious animals. They lead a solitary existence in the woods. Their pelts are worthless so they are rarely hunted. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/30 "2008-12-02T19:06:10Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I have this image of a horse…and water. If you right-click it, you can set it as your desktop wallpaper. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/31 "2008-12-02T19:14:52Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I have this image of a horse…and water. There was a Benny Hill sketch… Teacher: Use the word “horticulture” in a sentence. Benny Hill: You can lead a horticulture, but you cannot make her think. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/32 "2008-12-02T19:35:10Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I think [these guys](http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18254) have the best responses. (Not porn, but may not be safe for work. Basically they respond to **Coberst’s** spam with images of scantily clad women.) > > **Cervaise’s** response is the best our board features will allow. I second the validity of Cervaise’s post. A cromulent response to multi-boardal spam embiggens us all. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/33 "2008-12-02T19:57:28Z")
‘embiggens’…what a great word! And I never knew what ‘horticulture’ meant before. I’m learning a lot from this thread, even if you high brow types are throwing around $10 words like we weren’t in a recession or something… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/34 "2008-12-02T20:06:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > There was a Benny Hill sketch… > > Teacher: Use the word “horticulture” in a sentence. > Benny Hill: You can lead a horticulture, but you cannot make her think. I’m pretty sure Dorothy Parker is credited with that quip, though it’s entirely possible it predates even her. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/35 "2008-12-02T20:10:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m pretty sure Dorothy Parker is credited with that quip, though it’s entirely possible it predates even her. And I may be totally mixing the horticulture quip up with another sketch completely. I THOUGHT my first exposure to the joke was Benny Hill. I may be wrong. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/36 "2008-12-02T21:32:37Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Can you name some names behind this conspiracy? What educational policies that might have led to critical thought have been activly suppressed by the powers that be? Also how are the powers that be able to determine what policies should be supressed, since they themselves were raised in the same system and are therefore unable to think critically? Also, since you no doubt think that you can think critically, how did you escape this all encompassing mind-trap laid by the, uh, I dunno, Masons? Jews? Illuminauti? British Royal family? Space aliens? > > I can’t believe I got sucked into this. CA (Corporate America) has developed a well-honed expertise in motivating the population to behave in a desired manner. Citizens as consumers are ample manifestation of that expertise. CA has accomplished this ability by careful study and implementation of the knowledge of the ways of human behavior. I suspect this same structure applies to most Western democracies. A democratic form of government is one wherein the citizens have some voice in some policy decisions. The greater the voice of the citizens the better the democracy. In America we have policy makers, decision makers, and citizens. The decision makers are our elected representatives and are, thus, under some control by the voting citizen. The policy makers are the leaders of CA; less than ten thousand individuals, according to those who study such matters. Policy makers exercise significant control of decision makers by controlling the financing of elections. Policy makers customize and maintain the dominant ideology in order to control the political behavior of the citizens. This dominant ideology exercises the political control of the citizens in the same fashion as the consuming citizen is controlled by the same dominant ideology. An enlightened citizen is the only means to gain more voice in more policy decisions. An enlightened citizen is much more than an informed citizen. Critical thinking is the only practical means to develop a more enlightened citizen. If, however, we wait until our CT trained grade-schoolers become adults I suspect all will be lost. This is why I think a massive effort must be made to convince today’s adults that they must train themselves in CT. “Thomas R. Dye, Professor of Political Science at Florida State University, has published a series of books examining who and what institutions actually control and run America. to understand who is making the decisions that affect our lives, we also have to understand how societies structure themselves in general. Why the few always tend to share more power than the many and what this means in terms of both a society’s evolution and our daily lives. they examined the other 11 institutions that exert just as powerful a shaping influence, although somewhat more subtle: The Industrial, Corporations, Utilities and Communications, Banking, Insurance Investment, Mass Media, Law, Education Foundation, Civic and Cultural Organizations, Government, and the Military.” [http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/12-dye.html](http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/12-dye.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/37 "2008-12-02T21:40:59Z")
Can you be more specific in your definition of “Corporate America” ? Like, maybe narrowing it down to thirty or forty actual corporations? Without that, Corporate America could extend all the way down to the clerk at 7/11. If he part of the conspiracy or a victim of it? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/38 "2008-12-02T22:03:11Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > Interesting. I’m curious why you think that a critical thinker would do either of these things. He isn’t thinking of a society where everyone is a critical thinker - he’s thinking of a society where everyone is a critical thinker who has never heard of game theory. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/39 "2008-12-02T23:27:48Z")
> [@coberst](#): > > An enlightened citizen is the only means to gain more voice in more policy decisions. An enlightened citizen is much more than an informed citizen. Critical thinking is the only practical means to develop a more enlightened citizen. If, however, we wait until our CT trained grade-schoolers become adults I suspect all will be lost. This is why I think a massive effort must be made to convince today’s adults that they must train themselves in CT. The one why I the knowled citizens the citizens ability by control be manner. Citizens to control of that expertise signifesters, developed makers exercision this individuals, and citizens adults the fashion order the citizens the citizens and makers, and citizen is the voting of gover, we have political means areful study suspected makers. The significa we has as control of gover, well-honed makers. The citical convince oned exercise. Critizen. Americal means and in some cons. The of the grader to the citizen think a massives are, the of themselves in order the politizens. This dominant controlled expertises in makers behave same adults I suspectical the consuminancing those in the fashion of the policy makers, and implement ideology. I suspect train some policy decision of elect the polity by the study suspection of gover, well-honed citizen. I suspections. The same finant ideology in the be makers. Policy developed mattern democraction makers by care, the some populating to more our CT. CA have enlightened citizens have study and citize amplies. A decisionsuminant controlling citizen. The citizen think a democracies this the voice in CT train to cons. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332/40 "2008-12-03T02:20:34Z")
Question Authority… just when should we do that? I mean, it may be appropriate sometimes, but not other times… maybe? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-ignorance-is-no-accident/475332.md?page=3)