# Our means of thought is destructive **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513 "2009-10-04T03:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/1 "2009-10-04T03:02:15Z")
Manifesto of the half closed eye There is no distinction between man and nature. We are born out of our blind mother’s deep cavernous slimy womb and we are her hands, her eyes, her thoughts, her body, and her joy. We are young, and are not wise. We are talented and we are powerful and our sight goes far. Still, our seeing does not go deep, and are not wise. “Our modern industrial culture stands at an unprecedented edge, where these heretofore unindividualized byproducts of the unenlightened ‘enlightenment’ have sped us. Time and greed have accelerated so immensely that people have shrank into themselves and forgotten the possibility of each other’s existence. The very idea that life could go on without their being is seen as impossible. Fear of their own death is now seen as complete apocalypse. Cooperating at the basest level with those around them, who they see as mere ghosts, they cram as much sensory experience and quantifiable life down their throats into their fat bellies so that ‘life’ as they understand it, does not feel wasted.” – Chapter 2 from Twelve Months in the Inferno, J.L. Inscot “The very least that is certain and absolute is my consciousness. The very most that is possible is the consciousness of everything.” – John Dixon The dependence upon only what is absolute, knowable and light, results only in utter loneliness and absence, incomplete existence. When form disappears, all that remains is shadow. Is that absence real? When all that forms me disappears—darkness Am I real? Am I alive? I only have as much face as my shadow has. So we have to story our universe, reminders that we are acting as the same Being as everything else. Shadows playing us, us playing shadows. Everything around us has personality. Conscious. It watches us as we watch it. The trees watch us. The dirt. Even our plastic packaging. If you do not know this you have been lied to. You used to know it at least. Your favorite stuffed animal really did love you. It still does, somewhere. With half open eyes did we see the world then But now there is only ambition. Possessions are steps to a greater somewhere, or, at the most, brief and passionate affairs. It’s time to simplify our imaginations go far, and have worked incredible magic, let them, but let them not burden the rest of existence. Modern culture has burnt enough light to last us many lifetimes, rather And this is our goal, we must choose the most useful ones to keep, and learn how to use them respectfully, putting the flames of our excesses out before we go up with them. These lights will be our media – technologies of communication We will take advantage of modern magic to carve stories into the darkness that return our imaginations towards the gathering of wisdom, invoking love, respect, and harmony in all things. No more waste. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/2 "2009-10-04T03:07:35Z")
Could you rephrase the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/3 "2009-10-04T03:10:39Z")
muad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dibmuad’dib ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/4 "2009-10-04T03:19:30Z")
For those who are keeping score, I’ve closed the two clones of this in Cafe Society and MPSIMS, but am leaving this one open. (A GD mod, of course, may come along later and close it.) Looks like y’all are handling things pretty well in here, though. twickster, MPSIMS/Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/5 "2009-10-04T03:19:33Z")
To the OP: do you have an actual topic for debate? Or are you just seeking feedback on your prose poem? Stated a little bit more directly: you’ll find this board a receptive forum for serious, straightforward discussion; you won’t find much of a welcome for exercises in selfcongratulatory indirection. Speak like a real person in a real conversation, and you’ll get a serious response on what looks like it must be (though it’s hard to tell) a subject that’s important to you. If you’re looking for debate, start a debate. If you’re looking for a poetry slam, you missed your exit. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/6 "2009-10-04T03:22:01Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > I’ve closed the two clones of this in Cafe Society and MPSIMS, but am leaving this one open. Are you implying that this is a debate, as opposed to being “mindless” and “pointless”? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/7 "2009-10-04T03:25:34Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Are you implying that this is a debate, as opposed to being “mindless” and “pointless”? **angelic smiley** ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/8 "2009-10-04T03:31:35Z")
The OP reads as the Tao Te Ching might of read, had Laozi wrote it while on a bad acid trip. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/9 "2009-10-04T03:32:28Z")
We must have a look at Paul Atreides…on Caladan. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/10 "2009-10-04T03:34:02Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Are you implying that this is a debate, as opposed to being “mindless” and “pointless”? GD is also for witnessing… and the OP appears to be arguing for (or claiming at least) a form of post-modern animism where the plastic shopping bags are sentient. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/11 "2009-10-04T03:34:26Z")
We must have a look at PAUL Atreides…on CALADAN. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/12 "2009-10-04T03:42:41Z")
> [@eyeshalfdreaming](#): > > it’s time to simplify Already?! ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/13 "2009-10-04T03:43:46Z")
Dune…Arrakis…desert planet…things moving… We must have a look at Paul Atreides, on Caladan. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/14 "2009-10-04T03:47:44Z")
I miss the guy who used to grapeify everything.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/15 "2009-10-04T03:52:18Z")
We must have a look at Paul Atreides…on Caladan. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/16 "2009-10-04T04:02:57Z")
I think this is an argument against the legalization of hemp. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/17 "2009-10-04T04:03:38Z")
I just want to take this opportunity to say, we must have a look at Paul Atreides…on Caladan. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/18 "2009-10-04T04:43:51Z")
> [@eyeshalfdreaming](#): > > No more waste. And yet you posted this? = = = TM: You may have fun with this for a few more hours. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/19 "2009-10-04T04:53:31Z")
Look, here’s how it is. Several hundred years from now, if man is still alive…if woman, for that matter, can survive…they might find some very strange things. A thousand years later, it’s likely that we will tell neither the truth nor the lies; none of our opinions will truly be our own because we will consume pills which influence our minds, freeing us from the obligation to have original thoughts. A thousand more years later, our dietary habits will have changed to the point that we won’t even need our teeth to chew the “food” which we consume for nutrition; in fact, we might not even need our eyes either, since we will see through virtual optic lenses. One thousand more years into the future, it’s likely that what we now know as courtship and mating practices will no longer exist. We’ll have no reason to pick a husband or wife; instead, we will be able to choose our offspring via artificial fertilization, with a long glass tube. In a thousand more years, if we’re even still around, God might look at us and decide it’s time for the judgment day. If so, a millennium later, God will either be impressed with the technological progress mankind has made, or be so disappointed in our overreliance on our artificial creations that He will bring judgment upon us. Hell, a thousand years after that, I don’t even know if man is still going to be alive. We’ve depleted so many of our natural resources, and we’ve put back very little. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513/20 "2009-10-04T05:00:10Z")
Dude, that would make an _awesome_ song. You should, you know, like, name the years or something. 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-means-of-thought-is-destructive/512513.md?page=2)