# Our New Iraq Counterinsurgency Strategy: Surge the Bombings! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2007, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151 "2007-06-15T19:01:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/21 "2007-06-15T23:47:49Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] First offered link is to the _International Herald Tribune_, source to the Associated Press. Have you any scorn to offer those sources? \*Yahoo News \* tainted, in your estimation? [/QUOTE] There was more than one link. And the one that \*\*IntelSoldier \*\*was referencing (and which I commented on) was from [antiwar.com](http://antiwar.com). Clink on William Lind in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/22 "2007-06-15T23:48:49Z")
PS-Of course, you are all welcomed to believe that America is the world’s shinning star and nothing it does could possibly be wrong. 5000,000 dead Iraqis aside of course. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/23 "2007-06-15T23:59:52Z")
When truth is horror, **Red** , exaggeration is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/24 "2007-06-16T00:04:25Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] PS-Of course, you are all welcomed to believe that America is the world’s shinning star and nothing it does could possibly be wrong. 5000,000 dead Iraqis aside of course. [/QUOTE] What are you talking about? Who are you talking to? You’d be a lot less harmful to the cause you supposedly advocate if you actually engaged people rather than simply making up and knocking down Generic Evil Conservative strawmen. You’re really no different from the talk radio idiots who talk about The Liberals and how They want to do x, y, and z, ignoring all statements from actual liberals of what they actually believe and want to do. Stop being such a useless dumbass. Be more like **elucidator**. In fact, any time **elucidator** starts posting in a thread, immediately stop posting and just watch. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/25 "2007-06-16T00:11:03Z")
"I love compliments, we all do…burglars, humorists, Congressmen, all of us in the trade…Why, I could live for a week on a single compliment! But I was struck speechless by this complimentary thunderbolt! Never have a I heard a compliment so well phrased, or so richly deserved!" - Mark Twain ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/26 "2007-06-16T00:12:39Z")
[QUOTE=Giraffe] What do you think you’re accomplishing here, apart from feeding your own sense of self-righteousness and making people think you’re an asshole? [/QUOTE] On second thought, what the fuck do YOU think you’re “accomplishing” here? Other than insulting me and rebutting none of my arguments? And speaking of “assholes” I’d imagine a giraffe’s much larger than mine anyway. But then again, it appears you’re the “expert” when it comes to defending your nation’s carnage and pillage of other (defenseless) countries, so who’s to say to say you’re not an asshole expert as well? Weird all of it, because you seemed like a fairly leveled-headed chap prior to this bugle-call outburst. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/27 "2007-06-16T00:18:35Z")
[QUOTE=Giraffe] What are you talking about? Who are you talking to? You’d be a lot less harmful to the cause you supposedly advocate if you actually engaged people rather than simply making up and knocking down Generic Evil Conservative strawmen. You’re really no different from the talk radio idiots who talk about The Liberals and how They want to do x, y, and z, ignoring all statements from actual liberals of what they actually believe and want to do. Stop being such a useless dumbass. Be more like **elucidator**. In fact, any time **elucidator** starts posting in a thread, immediately stop posting and just watch. [/QUOTE] Sorry, you get no **luc’ II** with moi. It is what it is. He is witty and normally level-headed. I’m brash and and hot-blooded. But if nothing else, we’re together in TRUTH as regards this whole pointless butchering in Iraq. Besides, I don’t do impressions. WYSIWYG. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/28 "2007-06-16T00:40:06Z")
Since when is **Giraffe** an apologist / excuser of this clusterfuck? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/29 "2007-06-16T00:41:08Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But it was in an editorial on [antiwar.com](http://antiwar.com), so it must be true! [/QUOTE] If you have a problem with what Lind is saying, feel free to rebut his words. I quoted him because he states clearly and succinctly something that should already be old news (dropping bombs is an own goal in fighting an insurgency), and why it should be old news (the three reasons he gives). If there’s a counterargument, go for it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/30 "2007-06-16T00:56:13Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Since when is **Giraffe** an apologist / excuser of this clusterfuck? 😕 [/QUOTE] In so far as I know, he started [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8684327&postcount=14). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/31 "2007-06-16T01:07:21Z")
[QUOTE=Giraffe] What are you talking about? Who are you talking to? [/quote] How do I make my voice do this? 😉 If I read **RedFury** right, what pisses him off about **IntelSoldier** is his bullshit claim of precise accuracy in raining down death from the sky. We all know it’s bullshit, we all know there’s plenty of “collateral damage” when dropping bombs on insurgents, and this ‘supreme accuracy of the eye in the sky’ absurdity that **I.S.** is selling is a horrid and doomed attempt to wash himself clean if, in fact, he plays the role in such bombings that he claims. I completely agree with his “fuck off” to **IntelSoldier**. I have no idea what your problem with his post @9 was, since you told him off without telling him why. (BTW, **IntelSoldier** , we’ve had other intel soldiers in years past that posted here. Track record? Not good. Don’t bother citing yourself as an authority.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/32 "2007-06-16T01:37:09Z")
“There he is, Sgt. Rockjaw! Ali-bin-Evil, the tall, bearded guy in the middle of that cluster of Campfire Girls!” “Not to worry, I’ll pick him off with a hand grenade…” ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/33 "2007-06-16T01:52:37Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I completely agree with his “fuck off” to **IntelSoldier**. I have no idea what your problem with his post @9 was, since you told him off without telling him why. [/QUOTE] Fair point. I think **RedFury** ’s over the top rhetoric has been wearing on me for a while, and post #9 was where it finally was enough that I snapped at him. I should have waited until the annoyance passed so I could both snap at him and tell him why he was pissing me off. Basically, I find his combative, over-the-top demonization of those he argues with very irritating. I mean, after I bitched at him he immediately and reflexively dismissed me as a defender of the carnage in Iraq. That’s pathetic. It shows he has no interest in doing anything more than basking in his own outrage. More seriously, I think he aids those who would dismiss critics of the war as hysterical and out of touch with reality. His response to **IntelSoldier** is a perfect example. A thread is started to discuss the damaging effect increased bombing could have on the civilian population and question the effectiveness of such tactics in fighting insurgency. Five or six posts follow, agreeing with the OP. Someone who claims to have first-hand experience that contradicts parts of the OP posts a dissenting view. **RedFury** calls him a murderer and tells him to fuck off. What’s the point of having a thread like this if you’re going to call anyone who claims a differing viewpoint a murderer and tell them to fuck off? Be rude all you want, but at least engage in discussion or argument. You did that, **elucidator** did that, but my guess is that it’s too late – any replies from **IntelSoldier** are going to be sniping back and forth with **RedFury**. It’s boring, and I’m sick of it. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/34 "2007-06-16T03:05:31Z")
Give **RedFury** this much, **Giraffe** – at least he can still feel furious outrage at the latest insanities. I’m over here with **elucidator** , my outrage tanks exhausted, running on fumes of despair. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/35 "2007-06-16T05:46:52Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I can barely feel it anymore. Should be hot fury, terror and death from the sky, visited on the innocent for their proximity to the guilty. Burned out. All that remains is dreary regret, like day old oatmeal. Even when war doesn’'t kill, it deadens. [/QUOTE] I typically can’t stand reading peoples’ poetry, because it sounds hollow and forced, but even though I don’t completely agree with what you’re saying I have to admit that the way you said it is pretty appealing. Thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/36 "2007-06-16T08:48:23Z")
[QUOTE=IntelSoldier] I suppose the words “positive identification” mean nothing to you. Who tells you people that we just drop bombs out of the sky for no reason? [/quote] Yeah, remember at the start of the war when we identifed and killed Saddam Hussein and didn’t kill 50+ civilians due to bad intelligence and technical glitches? > [@](#): > > You all really need to get this idea of willy-nilly bomb dropping out of your heads and start thinking the same way we do air strikes- accurately. It’s true. The amount of civilians we can kill per bomb is way more efficient now than when we used gravity bombs. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Either way, you don’t defeat an insurgency by dropping bombs. It. Just. Doesn’t. Work. Sure you can, if you drop enough. I’m surprised we just haven’t begun mass saturation bombing of neighborhoods that don’t follow orders. It’s not like there would be any consequences for those who make the decisions. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/37 "2007-06-16T13:11:47Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] How do I make my voice do this? 😉 If I read **RedFury** right, what pisses him off about **IntelSoldier** is his bullshit claim of precise accuracy in raining down death from the sky. We all know it’s bullshit, we all know there’s plenty of “collateral damage” when dropping bombs on insurgents, and this ‘supreme accuracy of the eye in the sky’ absurdity that **I.S.** is selling is a horrid and doomed attempt to wash himself clean if, in fact, he plays the role in such bombings that he claims. I completely agree with his “fuck off” to **IntelSoldier**. I have no idea what your problem with his post @9 was, since you told him off without telling him why. (BTW, **IntelSoldier** , we’ve had other intel soldiers in years past that posted here. Track record? Not good. Don’t bother citing yourself as an authority.) [/QUOTE] Spot-on as is **marshmallow’s** example of the “surgical precision” with which the Air Force drops its bombs. I got pissed at **IntelSoldier** because he came in peddling bullshit we KNOW is not true since practically the start of hostilities. If it angers **Giraffe** that I called **IntelSoldier’s** bullshit just that, it’s his problem not mine. And yes, it does make him an apologist by denying what is so obvious to anyone else that’s kept up with the news coming out of Iraq: [U.S. Airstrikes Take Toll on Civilians](http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&q=Air+strikes+kills+many+in+Iraq) [Cluster Bombs, Air Strikes Killed Hundreds in Iraq by Jim Lobe](http://www.lewrockwell.com/ips/lobe35.html) [US airstrikes ‘kill 70’](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&q=Air+strikes+kills+many+civilians+in+Iraq&btnG=Search) [The Air War in Iraq Uncovered](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&q=Air+strikes+kills+many+civilians+in+Iraq&btnG=Search) [Missile Strike Kills 22 Civilians In Iraq](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&q=Air+strikes+kills+many+civilians+in+Iraq&btnG=Search) [CNN.com - Airstrike kills 14 in Falluja - Oct 8, 2004](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/08/iraq.main/) [Our Shadowy Iraq Air War](http://www.google.com/search?q=Air+strikes+kills+many+civilians+in+Iraq&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&start=30&sa=N) [US, British air strikes kill Iraqi oil workers](http://www.google.com/search?q=US+airstrikes+kill+civilians+%2B+Iraq&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&start=10&sa=N) [U.S. airstrikes kill 56 near Iraq-Syrian border](http://www.google.com/search?q=US+airstrikes+kill+civilians+%2B+Iraq&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&start=20&sa=N) [US air strikes on Basra kill 77 civilians, wound 366](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200303/s814185.htm) [Iraq Civilian Casualties? Who Knew? | TIME](http://www.google.com/search?q=US+airstrikes+kill+civilians+%2B+Iraq&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&start=40&sa=N) [Even our best smart bombs will kill civilians](http://www.google.com/search?q=US+airstrikes+kill+civilians+%2B+Iraq&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B2RNFA_enDO204DO204&start=50&sa=N) [Political Affairs Magazine - 78000 Iraqis Killed by Coalition Air …](http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/5364/1/264/) [The War on Iraq Has Made Moral Cowards of Us All](http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Nov2004/Ritter1101.htm) – By Scott Ritter: > [@](#): > > It is true that, with only a few exceptions, civilians who died as a result of ground combat were not deliberately targeted, but were caught up in the machinery of modern warfare. \*\*But when the same claim is made about civilians killed in aerial attacks (the Lancet study estimates that most of civilian deaths were the result of air attacks), the comparison quickly falls apart. Helicopter engagements apart, most aerial bombardment is deliberate and pre-planned. US and British military officials like to brag about the accuracy of the “precision” munitions used in these strikes, claiming this makes the kind of modern warfare practiced by the coalition in Iraq the most humanitarian in history. > > But there is nothing humanitarian about explosives once they detonate near civilians, or about a bomb guided to the wrong target. Dozens of civilians were killed during the vain effort to eliminate Saddam Hussein with “pinpoint” air strikes, and hundreds have perished in the campaign to eliminate alleged terrorist targets in Falluja. A “smart bomb” is only as good as the data used to direct it. And the abysmal quality of the intelligence used has made the smartest of bombs just as dumb and indiscriminate as those, for example, dropped during the second world war. > > The fact that most bombing missions in Iraq today are pre-planned, with targets allegedly carefully vetted, further indicts those who wage this war in the name of freedom. If these targets are so precise, then those selecting them cannot escape the fact that they are deliberately targeting innocent civilians at the same time as they seek to destroy their intended foe. Some would dismiss these civilians as “collateral damage”. But we must keep in mind that the British and US governments made a deliberate decision to enter into a conflict of their choosing, not one that was thrust upon them. We invaded Iraq to free Iraqis from a dictator who, by some accounts, oversaw the killing of about 300,000 of his subjects - although no one has been able to verify more than a small fraction of the figure. If it is correct, it took Saddam decades to reach such a horrific statistic. The US and UK have, it seems, reached a third of that total in just 18 months.\*\* – bolding/underlining mine. * * * Plenty more where those came from. Still willing to stick your neck out for **IntelSoldier** and insult me, **Giraffe**? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/38 "2007-06-16T13:23:37Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Give **RedFury** this much, **Giraffe** – at least he can still feel furious outrage at the latest insanities. I’m over here with **elucidator** , my outrage tanks exhausted, running on fumes of despair. [/QUOTE] Can’t have that, **ETF** , you and **luc** are in a position to do a lot more than I to end this outrage. Chin-up, dear. Hard as it might be. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/39 "2007-06-16T14:18:26Z")
[QUOTE=Giraffe] Basically, I find his combative, over-the-top demonization of those he argues with very irritating. [/quote] You say that as if there’s an excuse, a rationalization even, for the actions and positions of those he takes issue with. That apparently includes you. Might you kindly trouble to present a case for it instead of simply sniping, then? > [@](#): > > It shows he has no interest in doing anything more than basking in his own outrage. That’s what you think _after_ you’ve calmed down? Really? You don’t think it’s just barely possible that what he’s outraged over could just be useless killing, and the rationalization or acceptance of it? The very practice of demonization you accuse Red of is quite evident in that statement of yours. You show no comprehension of what he’s outraged about, or ability to recognize that he’s in fact thinking of anything but himself. You actually accuse him of \*enjoying \* it. > [@](#): > > More seriously, I think he aids those who would dismiss critics of the war as hysterical and out of touch with reality. What \*is \* the reality of this war to _you_, then? What have you presented to us that demonstrates any substance to that demonization of yours? > [@](#): > > What’s the point of having a thread like this if you’re going to call anyone who claims a differing viewpoint a murderer and tell them to fuck off? The point is about saving lives and ending the war. That should be fucking obious. Is there something more important you’d rather discuss? > [@](#): > > Be rude all you want, but at least engage in discussion or argument. Yep. Try it yourself sometime. **elucidator** ’s point about war deadening the soul is quite apt. You, sadly, appear to be yet another victim. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151/40 "2007-06-16T15:19:16Z")
A Pit thread that is both biting AND profound, didn’t see that coming. To **ElvisL1ves** and **RedFury** , it’s a noble fight and if logic and proof are brought into it you’ll surely win, but it will be a shallow victory for they will walk away deciding you’re wrong anyway. Still, for the people who are on the fence, it’s working. Bush’s ratings are the lowest they’ve ever been and still going down, so Americans are seeing the light. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-new-iraq-counterinsurgency-strategy-surge-the-bombings/408151.md?page=3)