Humanity hmm, hey that’s my club. But wait. I have never murdered another person. I was in the Army, does that count? Because unlike you, my concious is clear. I have never knowingly caused any creature suffering. But I do eat meat. Does that count? I have never intentionally fouled the environment, but I drive a car and use bleach in my wash.
Yeah, we do have an impact on the world, yes most of us try to minimize it.
We are idiots, but were are, collectively & on the average, amusing idiots.
Much like the 3 Stooges.
Therefore, as Court Fools to Heaven, we have a place.
Oh please. I don’t think being a jerk qualifies as a failing of a species. Are you placing animals who eat their own young above some guy who yelled at you on the road? There are plenty of tolerant, decent people, but you just choose to ignore them.
You might be proud of yourself for discovering that humanity is gasp not divine and perfect, something that philosphers and writers have said for centuries, but they’ve also seen that people do decent things too.
Wow, let’s hear it for sweeping generalizations.
Grow up, kid.
This may come as a surprise, but this realization is not the result of any event or any person. It’s just that I decided to open my eyes and see what we, as a species, are really like. I always thought we were born good and then became corrupted by our surroundings. But no. It’s bigger than this. Humanity is fundamentally messed up.
This is not about humanity not being divine or perfect, but quite the opposite. Humanity is the furthest one can be from divine or perfect: in the bipolar system of the universe, pitting God and Satan against each other along with their respective legions, we seem to belong more to the latter than to the former. Yet something within us seems to point that our destiny is not only to serve the former, the Legions of Good, but to become so embodied by good that humanity would become synonymous with goodness, almost divine (if not fully divine). Sure, philosophers have discovered that humanity is bad (even depraved, according to some), but they’re too soft. Saying we’re imperfect, depraved, or whatever, but capable of doing good is going half way. We are, quite literally, incapable of doing anything truly good. There’s always an ulterior motive - love of recognition or guilt or the feeling of superiority one gets from doing something “good” or fulfillment of expectation(s), and so on. If we look carefully enough, we come to realize that our acts of “good” always, always, always involve some ulterior motive. Even our good is stained with corruption. There is, thus, not one person that have ever existed whom we can call good. Every person has their agenda, and this very fact makes us evil as well - we close our eyes and hearts to what is outside of and against our agenda. We compartmentalize everything, and base our actions and feelings and thoughts accordingly. Surely we are capable of much more, we are able able to rise above this myopia.
And it isn’t because of the big things - the tyrants and captains of genocide - but look at the small things, at the senseless hatred and annoyance we bear for stupid reasons. I do it. You do it. Everyone does it. This goes totally against what we should know is better. And our criteria are so stupid too! If examined with cold reason, they wither in its blinding light. A person looked at us funny. Or had a bad tone in their voice. Or did not respond to a greeting. Or acted curtly with us. Or used our services without thanks. And so on. (None of these have happened to me, but these are just few of many reasons I have heard people give for why they feel negatively towards a person.) And sometimes there is no reason: the malevolence just is.
And before someone thinks I’ve suddenly become a Calvinist, I should remark that I think Calvinists are too soft. They believe that humanity is totally depraved, that corruption (from the Fall) pervades everything related to us, and because of this (and because of God’s perfection and because of the distance His perfection and our depravity put between God and us) we are unable to do anything that can contribute to our salvation. Grace and salvation are granted regardless of what we have done. Their preoccupation is human goodness and its relation with grace or salvation. This is not my stance, this is not my preoccupation. I go further. Forget God. Forget salvation. Even just considering humanity as it is in this world and universe, goodness is such a small part of us.
I liked the statement of how we are half demons and half angels. Such a conundrum, such a dilemma we are in! Why is it that our demon half prevails? Where does our angelic nature shine through? Can it ever? We have millennia of conditioning working against us - survival in this world was a very, very difficult endeavor. But now that we have survived, now that our survival is beyond doubt, can we change? Can we improve? Can we shed the violent nature within us to embrace compassion and peace and tranquility for their own sake? Can we open our hearts and minds to those outside of our nation and people and faith?
Pochacco, what makes you to respond so? Don’t like what’s written? Don’t agree? Don’t think it’s relevant? Please speak up - your drive-by comment and its motive puzzles me, they elude my comprehension. Is this an issue infants preoccupy themselves with?
WRS - the world makes more sense now. Must one exchange believing in humanity’s innocence for understanding the world?
No, it’s an issue teenagers preoccupy themselves with.
You’ve discovered that the human race isn’t perfect, and you’re pissed off about it.
You want perfection. And if you can’t have it, you’re ready to throw the whole mess in the trash.
Part of growing up is learning that nothing is ever going to be perfect. It’s realizing that there’s always going to be pain and there’s always going to be suffering, and that you, me and everyone else are always going to be selfish, weak sons-of-bitches.
And then, knowing all that, you still get up every morning and try to be the best person you can be.
That’s what being a grown-up is.
Stop spending so much time judging humanity. Instead, get up tomorrrow morning and say something kind to the first person you meet. Repeat for the rest of your life.
Ah, forgive me if my motive for posting this thread was not clear.
Whereas it is true that I just discovered for myself that humanity is less than what I thought it was (I know we were bad, but to what extent I never before attempted to fathom), this neither upsets nor bothers me. As a matter of fact, this fascinates me. Isn’t a fallen, depraved, horrid humanity much more fascinating to figure out and deal with rather than the demigods we often consider ourselves to be? This issue of humanity’s depravity puzzles me, too: there are many, many questions and puzzles in my mind regarding this issue.
My motive for this thread was to express this discovery (new to me, at least in certain aspects), being as it has become my opinion on humanity, and to hear what others have to say about this issue: if they agree, if they don’t, why they agree or disagree, etc.
I have no anger, no despair, no lonliness (despite what another thought), no rage because of this. Quite the opposite, actually: what used to bother me no longer does. Those annoying elements are simply manifestations of humanity’s depravity. Simple. Nothing to get worked up on, yes? It would be utterly stupid to waste emotion on something inevitable, something natural and innate. And since this encompasses the entire species, no person or people is exempt, and so every person’s behavior is cast in a different light. I am no exception, either: and so I am able to appreciate who and what I am better now, I am able to understand myself better now.
And, still, no one can doubt that humanity is extremely gifted and talented and so utterly fascinating. And fascinatinger and fascinatinger we become. 
WRS - Free! Finally, I feel free! Come, take off your blindfold, and see how we truly are!
Actually, I should mention one thing. While in college, I had to read parts of Thomas Hobbes’ Leviathan. Unlike most people in my class (who preferred Locke et al.), I agreed with Hobbes. (I might even quote him here.) His view of humanity, born, I believe, as it was during the English Civil War, was quite accurate, in my opinion, even though it wasn’t the most uplifting of depictions of humanity. But then truth isn’t always comfortable or comforting. My further observations and theorizing brought me to conclude - though I would never have dared admit this in public - that his view was right on the dot for the most part.
Considering the above, my views (new and old) are, of course, nothing that I have independently come about with. I am indebted to the glorious and inspired Hobbes, other commentators on humanity and current events, and ultimately to humanity itself. The mirror, figuratively, of course, has also helped me tremendously.
It would be arrogant (as if that would be anything new for a human, heh) for me to take credit for any theory or realization: all of our thoughts and theories and realizations and observations and calculations are built on those who have thought and seen and spoken and written before us. Our minds are brilliant, and the more brilliant before and among us help us to expand our own capabilities.
Again, I post this to share my opinions and experience and realization, and to hear what you have to say in return. In view of this, a “You’re wrong” is just as good as a “I agree”: but elaboration would be fantabulous anyway.
WRS
Bullshit. I say it bothers you a lot. Here’s why:
Yep, you’re not a god, or an angel, or a maia, just a poor, weak sinning man, just like the rest of us.
Yes. Now do your duty and live a moral life anyway.
I’m not a Christian, but Christianity has many lessons that can help you. For instance, why was it so important to God that he should walk on earth in the body of a man? Why did Christ not come as an angel? Once you begin to see the answer to that question, you’ll be closer to understanding what it means to be human.
I think you need to define what you mean by “truly good”. What act could a human perofrm that would meet your criteria for “truly good”?
Also, you state:
What about someone does the right thing, simply because it is the right thing to do. Are you saying that no one in the history of the world has ever done something good because it is the right thing to do? That every “good” act was done for some alterior motive?
Slee
Wait, so humanity is the most vile piece of filth ever to grace the universe and this doesn’t bother you? You’re happy to see that you’re an awful disgusting creature and merely find our murderous despicable tendencies “annoying”? I believe you’re a little out of proportion here.
Are you just trying to knock religious zealous down a peg or something? I don’t think many around here glorify humanity as anything other than sacks of flesh who happen to be able to build some fancy toys, so no one’s going to be impressed with your “discovery”. You’re being a bit too melodramatic.
Really, we have to wonder what exactly is “good”. That’s the thing - human minds created the concepts of good and noble and then applied them to creatures and situations that can’t be described as such. Is a sunny day “good”? Is a violent thunderstorm bad? The reality is that neither can be described as good or bad without humans placing their own humanity on it. That’s why animals are neither good nor bad - they have no concept of it. Good and bad are human concepts and applying them outside of the human race is irrational.
Then you can come upon concepts that are really hard to wrap around. Disease can often times keep a population (human or animal) in check by ensuring that millions won’t overcrowd and eventually doom everyone. But would you classify a disease that ravages parts of the this population as “good”? Of course not, it’s terrible and humans strive to find a cure for it. Are those people “good” for doing that? Or is it getting in the way of nature?
I had a teacher many a year back in high school who spent the first three days of the class making the students try to define the word “good” without using actual situations or synonyms. It’s a lot harder than you would think it is.
Yes, we humans are capable of great things and terrible things. Some humans focus solely on the terrible. Perhaps not as many on the good. That’s why each of us should strive to live as morally as we reasonably can. It’s an imperfect world, I’m an imperfect guy … oh well. It’s not gonna change, so I might as well get used to it.
Don’t forget dolphins. Dolphins have been known to bully up on smaller, weaker dolphins and pick on them. They’ve also been known for remarkable acts of kindness towards their own species and towards humans.
And then there are ants. Not only do ants kill each other, but they also go to war. They’ve been known to enslave losers of their wars, and to keep herds of aphids.
Or, as Shakespeare put it