I am the pastor of a small, non-denominational, non-organizational, non-formal Bible church. After reading a number of the posts in this debate, I’d like to weigh in with my humble opinion.
The entire problem with denominationalism (which I have never been able to find a mandate for in Scripture), in my opinion, is its focus on sins and sinning, rather than on **“the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world,” ** (John 1:29), **“the man. Christ Jesus; who…died for our sins…gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” ** (1 Cor. 15:3; 1 Tim. 2:5,6)
The focus should be on Christ and what he did; not on us and what we’ve done or not done.
The sinful acts/thoughts that eveyone of us engages in are a part of our human condition. **“By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” ** (Romans 5:12)In God’s eyes there is no one act of sin that is more heinous than another. **“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is quilty of all.” ** (James 2:10) *All * sin is offensive to God, but God, through Christ, has forgiven *all * sin, and offers reconciliation to "all them that believe" (Romans 3:22)
The issue is belief, not sin(s). When religion places the focus on human behavior, it misses the point. Getting people to clean up their act, or be faithful to a moral code will never get them saved. Only believing that Christ’s singular act of faith at Calvary–trusting that what he did took care of the sin problem–will save someone.
I am not issueing a license to sin here. If someone came to one of my meetings, who claimed to be of a homosexual orientation, and asked me if I thought it was okay with God to carry on a homosexual relationship (i.e, to engage in sexual intercourse with one of the same sex) I would have to say, "no, it isn’t, it’s a sin(see Romans 1:26,27), but, God can’t hold it against you because: ‘where sin abounded, grace did much more abound,’" ( Romans 5:20). I would follow that by asking the individual if he/she had accepted God’s offer of salvation through Christ. If they said yes, then I would go straight to Romans chapter 6, which I believe to be God’s remedy for sinning. When one reads that chapter, taking it for what it says within the context of the “superabounding” grace of chapter 5:20, the following conculsions will be drawn:
Just because you are under grace, doesn’t give you a license to go on doing what you’ve done in the past. (Verses 1,2, 15)
Stop “serving” your sin–allowing it to dominate you–by reckoning yourself to be dead to it, because you are free of it’s penalty. (verses 3-13,18,22)
You can’t be condemned by your sin(s), because your are “not under the law, but under grace.” (verse 14)
Because of this, stop yielding yourself to your sins, and start yielding yourself to righteousness (verse 19 and chapter 12:1,2) Is this not exactly what Christ said–in a very shortened form-- to the woman caught in the act of adultery? (John 8:3-11)
Whereas salvation is an event, the above is a life long process which follows it. Some may be saying to this: “Where does confession play a part in this?” As far as I can tell, it doesn’t. Once you’ve confessed Christ as Saviour, as in Romans 10:9-13, you are placed into Christ’s body (1 Cor. 12:13), and become **“the righteousness of God in Christ” ** (Romans 3:22). What would be the point of enumerating and confessing something that God has already forgiven? ( Notice that Jesus didn’t require a confession from the adulterous woman in John 8)
Much more info and other views summarized via that link.
If you choose to judge homosexual orientation itself as sinful, out of curiosity, how do you counsel this person to change? If he can’t do it no matter how strong his faith, do you tell him that God made him that way, and for a reason?
I don’t “judge homosexual orientation as sinful.” The Bible, however, judges homosexual intercourse (among a multitude of other behaviors) as sinful. (see Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:20-32)
I would never tell someone who claimed to be a homosexual (male or female), bi-sexual, or whatever-sexual that God “made” them to be of any particular orientation. The fact is, no one since Adam and Eve have been created or made. We are pro-created or “born,” not made (Job 25:4; Matt. 11:11). Claiming, “God made me this way, therefore, I can’t help but indulge myself in this behavior;” is unmitigated nonsense, and nothing more than a cop-out. God made Adam (man) in his own image (Gen. 1:26,27), perfect–no doubt–in every way, but obviously left him with a free will. That free will lead to his downfall, which brought sin into the world, “and death by sin…and so death passed upon all men.” (Romans 5:12). In other words, Adam’s “sin nature” passes to all men through the birth canal. It is this nature that separates us from God, not our behavior. Is God to be blamed for this? No, Adam is to be blamed. If you want to blame God, go ahead. You are free to believe whatever you will–God won’t stop you–but in the end I believe you will be better off by believing God and accepting his plan for you.
There is no “can’t” concerning human behavior with God–only “won’t.” My counsel to any person (who desires to change) would be to cease from their efforts and receive the grace God freely offers them. Once they have done this, then I believe real change is possible (but not easy or without suffering), because they are now with God (on God’s team), and “with God, all things are possible” (Matt. 19:26)
Isn’t it wonderful, then, that Jesus and not the Bible is going to be our Judge. And we have some detailed information as to what He said He would be judging us on, straight from the Messiah’s mouth.
Ah, so let’s see: your reasoning from your understanding of the Bible is to be believed over the heartfelt testimony of individuals as to their own sexuality why? In any case “God created me this way” or “I was born this way” is shorthand for “I didn’t ask to be this way; it’s something I discovered about myself.” And IMO it’s quite possible that God made some people gay, for whatever reasons He saw good. One of which could be a test of the rest of us as to whether we can treat them in the way He commanded us to treat all our fellow men.
Right. So why the Hell didn’t you stop the tsunami before it killed all those people? After all, you have an “in” with God, right? What God can do and what He does do are two different things – and I remain amazed and blessed by the surprises He throws my way, just when I think I have Him figured out. The “real change” I strive for is people at peace with who they are, living moral lives as who they are and in a relationship with their Creator and Redeemer, not trying to be someone they are not and never can be. If you’re going to throw that Matt 19:26 quote around, be prepared to take the blame for everything that goes wrong – you’re claiming to speak for Someone who could have fixed it.
Or you might extend a hand of genuine friendship and love to those you’re presuming to lecture, and attempt to understand them and who they are, and then show Christ’s love to them in a real way. And use your pastorate to make their lives a bit easier, rather than worse.
I dunno. Just a few ideas, from someone who tries to do what Jesus said. Think about it.
I’m also rather torn. On one hand, I think the current attitude of sexuality in general is rather backwards and overly laden with unnecessary guilt.
On the other hand, I think the church should really speak up. Not about homosexuality, per se, though. I think that’s more a symptom of the general decline of social order than a direct problem. Instead of hounding Congress to pass laws forbidding gays to marry, we should be tackling the much more relevant issues of abuse, divorce, and premarital relations. Once we get that massive beam out of our eye, then we can worry about the speck.
Sigh. If it’s not one extreme, it’s the other. What is up with us that we can’t ever seem to find a middle path and stay on it?
I read this thread a few days ago before I had re-registered, so when I wanted to post, I couldn’t and I’m weighing in a bit late on this. But to the person who said they didn’t know any churches who actively discriminated against gays or kicked them out…
My boss at my job I just left was a middle-aged gay man. He used to work at an electronics store in the Montrose area of Houston, which is known as being the “gay” area here, in that there are lots of clubs there and that sort of thing just seems to centre around that area (it’s not a negative label, it’s just turned out that way.)
His church actually told him to quit coming to their services, because he “worked in the sinful area of town and they didn’t want that type in their church.” I was pretty disturbed when he told me this, though I highly suspect that he was actually told to leave because he is gay, since that seemed like a rather flimsy reason to exclude someone to me. So yeah, that kind of thing does happen. He already seemed kind of uncomfortable talking about it to me, he was obviously a religious person and it had seemed to distress him a lot, so I didn’t pry for more information (such as the specific denomination) even though I was curious to know more.
I have seen both the ads being discussed here, and I confess, they made me feel a lot better and have a glimmer of hope in humanity again, after I have been feeling pretty down on everything for a while. I wish more churches would follow in this path.
I suppose then, if I believe, I can become a white person.
And a man.
And six feet tall.
And Canadian.
I can make my daughter instantly potty-trained.
I can mend my husband’s sprained wrist instantly.
Then I can go raise my father from the dead. He’s only been there 20 years. Shouldn’t be difficult. Didn’t matter that a half dozen people prayed, laying on hands, in Jesus name for him to be healed as he lay dying.
Afterward, I’ll head over to South Asia and instanteously remove all evidence of tsunami damage.
It’s possible, right?
What God himself can do is limitless. It’s beyond what we can ask or think. What God will do, even when we ask in full faith that He is capable of doing it, supernaturally or via human intervention, is a different matter entirely. All of human history suggests that this is true; none suggests that it is possible for people to change (rather than ignore) their sexual orientation no matter how much prayer, faith, belief, struggle or suffering they undertake.
In anwer to the above responses to my second post.
Again, I never said God could or would change the nature or orientation we are born with. I What I did say, is that–in spite of our nature–it is possible, with God, to change our behavior, not because someone (or society) tells us we ought to, but because–*now *–we are constrained by the love of Christ to do so. If God says, in his word, that engaging in a particular behavior is not acceptable, then I trust that with God’s help, through the “renewing of our minds,” (Romans 12:1-3) that it is possible to cease from indulging ourselves in that behavior.
This idea of someone being genetically predisposed to a particular orientation is being applied to almost every kind of behavior these days. I had a friend and brother in Christ, an “alchoholic,” who–when confronted with his drunkness–informed me that he couldn’t help it because, as he put it, “I am what I am.” In other words it’s only natural that he indulge himself in this behavior. I didn’t disagree with him. What we are in our flesh, some of us more prone to over indulgence in certain behaviors than others, can’t be changed, but, as “new creatures in Christ,” our response to the demands of our nature to indulge ourselves in the behavior can be.
As far as human experience goes, I wouldn’t ignore it, but I would always test it against the word of God.
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart, and lean not on thine own understanding" (Prov. 3:5)
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Prov. 14:12)
Seems like a reasonable proposition. Now, what “behaviors” (besides active imbibing by alcoholics, which you mentioned) do you have in mind?
Me, I think people are naturally inclined to justify their own behavior and judge others – and one thing God will heal them of, if they are open to His work transforming them (as your Romans 12 passage mentions), is to be freed of this tendency.
Love can do remarkable things in people’s lives. Don’t wear blinders to how Christ works in the lives of the men and women you seemingly want to put into chastity belts and the living of sterile, lonely existences.
[quote=If God says, in his word, that engaging in a particular behavior is not acceptable, then I trust that with God’s help, through the “renewing of our minds,” (Romans 12:1-3) that it is possible to cease from indulging ourselves in that behavior. ]
That isn’t God’s word, but Paul’s. That of a fully normal human trying to do his best to be a religious leader, but still capable of flaws and blindnesses. Just like yourself, in fact, no more and no less.
Yes, churches can be exclusive (I want to say exclusionary, but I don’t think it’s a word).
A pastor near where my parents live refused to marry couple who had a child together until they lived apart for six months. Yup, he had a problem with them “living in sin”, but apparently no thought as to their child’s welfare, and how much better it was to have daddy living in the same house as mummy.
Another pastor refused to marry couples who live together or who had ever co-habited for any period of time.
My parent’s friend, who was divorced from her husband after he ran off with his secretary, had to go in front of a committee and explain why she, as a sinful divorcee should be allowed to re-marry within the church. Never mind that it was her husband who left her.
You can forget about co-habiting straight couples, never mind gay couples, being welcomed in some churches.
Some churches don’t welcome people who drink alcohol…not alcoholics, just people who drink alcohol ( the wedding at Cana seems to have passed them by).
Welcomed is not the same as being allowed to attend services.
I thought that it was a lovely advert, saying “We know you want to go to church, but many churches don’t want you there as you are. We do”. More power to them.
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Yes it can, and I am not wearing blinders to how Christ’s love works in peoples lives–I have witnessed it in many people, including myself. But, as a minister of God, I am bound to teach the whole counsel of God, not just the part of it the world presently accepts. Christ is portrayed in the Bible, not only as the loving Savior, but also as the righteous judge. (2 Tim. 4:8)
The Christian life, contrary to what the world portrays it as, is not a “sterile, lonely existence.” Before I got saved, there were a lot of things I didn’t believe I could live without. To my surprise I found that, not only could I live without them, but I was a lot happier without them.
So a whole category of people are supposed to live alone, without the pleasure and benefit of a loving partner because certain interpretions of the Word indicate that for them to live with the partners that they would desire is wrong, and God’s grace is supposed to make that okay?
I don’t think the Scripture minces words on the issue of conjugal relationships-- they are always between a man and a woman (1 Cor. 7:2-9; Eph. 5:22-24)
The grace of God will save anyone who will trust Christ as their Saviour, and once they have done this, the grace of God will perserve them (their souls) “unto the day of redemption.” (Eph. 1:13,14; 4:30). What they do inbetween (i.e., their “works”) cannot affect this (Romans 11:6; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 2 Tim. 2:13). It will, however, affect what they receive as a reward on the day of redemption (Col. 3:24,25).
Being “saved,” and being a “Christian,” are two different things. Luther said, in the preface to his commentary on Paul’s letter to the Romans, that every Christian should have the letter memorized, because it is the quintessential statement concerning doctrine and practice for the church, the body of Christ. I happen to agree with him. Chapters 1-8 are about God’s grace and what it has provided; 9,10,11 are about Israel’s disposition and relationship to the church; the rest of the letter is primarily about Christian responsibility. Chapter 12 calls saved people to **“present your bodies a living sacrifice…which is your reasonable service…and be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.” ** (verses 1,2) This is without a doubt, an emphatic statement commanding those who are saved to change, so that God’s will can be proved through them. Those who chose to submit themselves to this change are going to experience suffering and hardship: (1 Cor. 9:27; 2 Tim. 2:3; 3:12), which the “natural man”(1 Cor. 2:14) resists.
Under grace “all things are lawful…” (1 Cor. 6:12), but all things are not expedient (profitable). If one wishes to be counted a soldier who is profitable to God, then one must conform to the program as God has laid it out. The question is: are we interested in pleasing ourselves and/or the world, or God?
In other words: absolutely and quit yer whinin’, it’s God’s will. That’s not an interpretation at all, just the facts, ma’am. You know it’s true because the preacher said so.
But if you just do it right then God will fix it all better. If He doesn’t, then obviously you’re not sincere and not doing it right. So it’s all YOUR fault if this snake-oil doesn’t work for you, got it?
No, sometimes they’re between a man and his women, sometimes between a man and his concubine, sometimes between a patriarchal figure and the woman who is trying to get him to acknowledge her, one way or another – and, credibly, at least once without condemnation they are between two young men. Granted, usually they’re between one man and one woman – most human beings, after youthful flings, desire monogamy, and most are (at least predominantly) heterosexual.
But if you carefully select your passages to support your preconceived opinions, you can prove just about anything from the Bible.
In any case, God isn’t telling you to hook up with another guy (I presume; correct me if I’m wrong). What He does tell you to do is something quite different than insisting on getting your way about whether others ought to have conjugal relations with people you don’t think they ought to bed with. And He makes no bones about the importance of what He does tell you to do.
And, furthermore, He makes a big stink about human beings who attempt to use His Law to insist on what others ought to be doing. You’d think someone who claims to be a pastor would at least know the content of the Gospels.
Hmmmm. Paul is very hot on the issue of grace, and I cannot fault you for pushing that point. But what does Jesus say? Paul didn’t die to save us; Paul is not at the right hand of God; Paul is not going to be our judge. And we’re not called Paulians.
BTW, how about focusing on what we’re supposed to do, if we love God, in this world? That’s a pretty big focus in Scripture. Stop worrying about the next world; God loves you and He has that under control. And you can’t earn your way there. Instead, He’s all kinds of explicit about the behavior He expects from His followers. And He’s not talking about sexual peccadillos when He discusses behavior – that’s human preoccupation, not divine commandment.
So why don’t you? Why are you insistent on playing the Pharisee and not the person who shows Christ to others through his behavior?
Gee, it’s funny how that gets quoted in these contexts! I have the same sexuality now as I had before I met the Lord; what changed is how I am able to show His love to my fellow man, and the freedom He gave me to be the person I am. And sometimes it’s not easy to do that – there have been several people around that I’ve been tempted to rip a new one. But the change is to evince the Fruits of the Spirit – and, frankly, brother, you’re sounding more like a purveyor of the Law than a sharer of those fruits. I say that not to condemn, but to encourage you to show that change in yourself, and, in so doing, give credence by your actions to your words.
Hmmm, that may have come out a bit…harsher than I had intended, sorry.
JMS@CCT, have you ever spoken with someone who has spent YEARS of their life trying to follow your suggested method, sincerely and devotedly, only to become continually more miserable and depressed because it doesn’t work? What would you say to such a person?
If such a person could simply no longer take it, if it came down to a choice between, for instance, suicide or being themselves (gay and out and proud), what would you say to them?
Would they be welcome in your church, having given your method an honest try? Would they only be welcome as long as they were alone, or would you rejoice with them when they found a loving partner (given that your solution of Godly celibacy failed them completely)?
This is not an academic question, by the way, nor a setup. Such people absolutely do exist.
[on preview]Dang it, Polycarp, how’d you sneak in there! I was trying to hurry!
My pastor, faced with a couple that was cohabitating outside of marriage, would take just the opposite approach- wanting to get the couple married so that the sexual relationship would no longer be sinful.
But then, Fr. Francis has this thing called common sense…
I’m not going to quote anyone specifically, but I am inspired to post. I was raised in the UCC and continue to attend to this day. My grandmother is ordained in the UCC and my mother is in the seminary at this time, so obviously I am biased, but I hope you will consider my post anyway.
What we mean when we say we are an open and affirming church to all people became clear to me this Christmas Eve. A long time friend of mine was in town for the service. He was very nervous, because this Christmas he was going to introduce his entire extended family to his boyfriend, whom he has been in a committed relationship with for seven years. He wasn’t sure how they would take the news, if they would treat him and his partner with love and respect, or even if he would be welcome in the future to family gatherings.
In contrast to this treatment from his actual family, he had absolutely no fear or hesitation about wearing a rainbow pin on his sports coat to the Christmas Eve service and sitting with his boyfriend in the pews. After the service, he was greeted and hugged and ‘mingled’ just the same as everyone else.
This is the message that the advertisement is trying to communicate, and this is the difference between a church that allows someone to attend with condition and what the UCC is doing.
I assume you mean Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? And what makes you think I don’t know the content of the Gospels?
I assume you are referring to the “red letters?” Here is a sampling from Matthew’s account:
**Matt 5:28-30
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matt 5:39-42
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matt 6:24-34
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Matt 7:6
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs (Gentiles) , neither cast ye your pearls before swine (Gentiles), lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matt 8:21-22
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Matt 10:1-15
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, *Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.*7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matt 10:16-18
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Matt 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matt 10:34-35
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matt 11:20-24
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Matt 12:36-37
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matt 15:21-26
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs (Gentiles).
Matt 18:8-9
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
(KJV)**
Do you really believe all this is for the obedience of Christians today? Check out all the references to judgement, punishment and hell. And notice that Gentiles are specifically excluded from this program.
What about the grace? The word is only mentioned five times in the four gospels, and three of those are attributes of Jesus’ character. On the contrary the word shows up 76 times in the 85-90 pages of Paul’s epistles. That’s because Paul was the Lord’s chosen vessel to preach “the gospel of the grace of God.”
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I believe Jesus inspired the writing of the entire Scripture. It is true that Paul did not die for our sins, nor does he sit at the right hand of God. But he got his message by revelation (Gal. 1:11,12) from the one who did, and does, and it is that message that explains what all this means to people like you and I.
You are sounding more like a preacher all the time. Might I suggest you back up your statements with something other than thin air–like some Scripture? I’m not worrying about the next world, because I know that’s where I’m headed. But, in fact, the next world is exactly what those of us who are saved are to be focused on–according to Scripture:
Jesus through Matthew:
Matt 6:20-21 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Jesus through Paul:
Col 3:2
**2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (KJV)
1Thes 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.**
(KJV)
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There is not one witness to these assertions from anything I have written here or anywhere else on this message board. If you will show me specifically where I have put anyone under the law, I will be glad to repent of it. The fact is, when you tell Christians that their message is in the “gospels,” as you do, that is exactly what you’re doing.
